Talk:Kite's color notation/Temperament names - Revision history

TallKite: TallKite moved page Talk:Color notation/Temperament names to Talk:Kite's color notation/Temperament names: Editor VectorGraphics has repeatedly edited pages I've written about my own research and inserted misinformation. On discord he is openly hostile to me. This move is necessary to avoid a toxic work environment for me.

2025-08-20T00:45:12Z

TallKite moved page Talk:Color notation/Temperament names to Talk:Kite's color notation/Temperament names: Editor VectorGraphics has repeatedly edited pages I've written about my own research and inserted misinformation. On discord he is openly hostile to me. This move is necessary to avoid a toxic work environment for me.

← Older revision	Revision as of 00:45, 20 August 2025
(No difference)

Fredg999: Fredg999 moved page Talk:Color notation/Temperament Names to Talk:Color notation/Temperament names: WP:NCCAPS

2023-07-03T01:24:37Z

Fredg999 moved page Talk:Color notation/Temperament Names to Talk:Color notation/Temperament names: WP:NCCAPS

← Older revision	Revision as of 01:24, 3 July 2023
(No difference)

Cmloegcmluin: /* both "contorsion" and "torsion"? */

2021-10-01T14:54:33Z

both "contorsion" and "torsion"?

← Older revision		Revision as of 14:54, 1 October 2021
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	::: I will read your articles when I get a chance. --[[User:TallKite\|TallKite]] ([[User talk:TallKite\|talk]]) 01:46, 30 September 2021 (UTC)		::: I will read your articles when I get a chance. --[[User:TallKite\|TallKite]] ([[User talk:TallKite\|talk]]) 01:46, 30 September 2021 (UTC)

			:::: This conversation moved here: [[User_talk:TallKite#having_torsion_vs._being_enfactored]] --[[User:Cmloegcmluin\|Cmloegcmluin]] ([[User talk:Cmloegcmluin\|talk]]) 14:54, 1 October 2021 (UTC)

TallKite: /* both "contorsion" and "torsion"? */

2021-09-30T01:46:27Z

both "contorsion" and "torsion"?

← Older revision		Revision as of 01:46, 30 September 2021
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	:: Okay, I see the edit. I think you've misunderstood my concern, though. It probably comes as a surprise because it runs counter to prevailing thinking about this topic. But Dave Keenan and I did a ton of research and discussion on this recently and we've come to the conclusion that temperaments ''cannot have torsion''. It is not a problem to avoid, but an impossibility. Certainly, you can take a comma like {{vector\|-4 4 -1}} and multiply it by 2 to get {{vector\|-8 8 -2}}. Our point is that while that has an effect on periodicity blocks, it has no effect on temperaments, because tempering out {{vector\|-8 8 -2}} implies tempering out {{vector\|-4 4 -1}}. On the other hand, temperaments ''can'' have ''con''torsion, because {{vector\|24 38 56}} does mean something musically different in RTT than {{vector\|12 19 38}}; however, because temperaments can't have torsion, we don't think it makes sense to call this effect "contorsion"; we call it "enfactoring" instead. Actually, the section of my new page I linked you to in the previous post may not have been the best introduction to our finding. Please try this one instead: [[Canonical_form#enfactored.2C_to_replace_contorted]] --[[User:Cmloegcmluin\|Cmloegcmluin]] ([[User talk:Cmloegcmluin\|talk]]) 01:20, 30 September 2021 (UTC)		:: Okay, I see the edit. I think you've misunderstood my concern, though. It probably comes as a surprise because it runs counter to prevailing thinking about this topic. But Dave Keenan and I did a ton of research and discussion on this recently and we've come to the conclusion that temperaments ''cannot have torsion''. It is not a problem to avoid, but an impossibility. Certainly, you can take a comma like {{vector\|-4 4 -1}} and multiply it by 2 to get {{vector\|-8 8 -2}}. Our point is that while that has an effect on periodicity blocks, it has no effect on temperaments, because tempering out {{vector\|-8 8 -2}} implies tempering out {{vector\|-4 4 -1}}. On the other hand, temperaments ''can'' have ''con''torsion, because {{vector\|24 38 56}} does mean something musically different in RTT than {{vector\|12 19 38}}; however, because temperaments can't have torsion, we don't think it makes sense to call this effect "contorsion"; we call it "enfactoring" instead. Actually, the section of my new page I linked you to in the previous post may not have been the best introduction to our finding. Please try this one instead: [[Canonical_form#enfactored.2C_to_replace_contorted]] --[[User:Cmloegcmluin\|Cmloegcmluin]] ([[User talk:Cmloegcmluin\|talk]]) 01:20, 30 September 2021 (UTC)

			::: I totally agree about torsion. Been thinking that way for years. You can't hear periodicity blocks! Someone explained to me once that it's mathematically possible to temper the two {{vector\|-4 4 -1}}'s differently, but that's silly. That would be an irregular temperament, but the "R" in RTT means regular.

			::: I agree about contorsion too. Contorsion is like saying that all 12edo music is really in 24edo, but half the notes don't happen to get used. :)

			::: As for this article, sure, torsion in the comma list (in the sense that the pivot product is bigger than it needs to be) is not at all a problem musically or mathematically. Rule #2 says to avoid torsion only as a means to getting a canonical name for the temperament.

			::: I will read your articles when I get a chance. --[[User:TallKite\|TallKite]] ([[User talk:TallKite\|talk]]) 01:46, 30 September 2021 (UTC)

Cmloegcmluin at 01:20, 30 September 2021

2021-09-30T01:20:44Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 01:20, 30 September 2021
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	: Sorry, I didn't write that passage very well. I have since edited it. I meant that having both contorsion and torsion is a problem to be avoided. --[[User:TallKite\|TallKite]] ([[User talk:TallKite\|talk]]) 00:59, 30 September 2021 (UTC)		: Sorry, I didn't write that passage very well. I have since edited it. I meant that having both contorsion and torsion is a problem to be avoided. --[[User:TallKite\|TallKite]] ([[User talk:TallKite\|talk]]) 00:59, 30 September 2021 (UTC)

			:: Okay, I see the edit. I think you've misunderstood my concern, though. It probably comes as a surprise because it runs counter to prevailing thinking about this topic. But Dave Keenan and I did a ton of research and discussion on this recently and we've come to the conclusion that temperaments ''cannot have torsion''. It is not a problem to avoid, but an impossibility. Certainly, you can take a comma like {{vector\|-4 4 -1}} and multiply it by 2 to get {{vector\|-8 8 -2}}. Our point is that while that has an effect on periodicity blocks, it has no effect on temperaments, because tempering out {{vector\|-8 8 -2}} implies tempering out {{vector\|-4 4 -1}}. On the other hand, temperaments ''can'' have ''con''torsion, because {{vector\|24 38 56}} does mean something musically different in RTT than {{vector\|12 19 38}}; however, because temperaments can't have torsion, we don't think it makes sense to call this effect "contorsion"; we call it "enfactoring" instead. Actually, the section of my new page I linked you to in the previous post may not have been the best introduction to our finding. Please try this one instead: [[Canonical_form#enfactored.2C_to_replace_contorted]] --[[User:Cmloegcmluin\|Cmloegcmluin]] ([[User talk:Cmloegcmluin\|talk]]) 01:20, 30 September 2021 (UTC)

TallKite: /* both "contorsion" and "torsion"? */

2021-09-30T00:59:51Z

both "contorsion" and "torsion"?

← Older revision		Revision as of 00:59, 30 September 2021
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	I disagree with the idea that a temperament can meaningfully have both contorsion and torsion. Actually I think that torsion only applies to periodicity blocks and doesn't exist for temperaments because they temper commas out. I recently published a new page here with more details: https://en.xen.wiki/w/Canonical_form#the_pathology_of_enfactoredness I'm interested in your thoughts on it when you get a chance. --[[User:Cmloegcmluin\|Cmloegcmluin]] ([[User talk:Cmloegcmluin\|talk]]) 19:19, 29 September 2021 (UTC)		I disagree with the idea that a temperament can meaningfully have both contorsion and torsion. Actually I think that torsion only applies to periodicity blocks and doesn't exist for temperaments because they temper commas out. I recently published a new page here with more details: https://en.xen.wiki/w/Canonical_form#the_pathology_of_enfactoredness I'm interested in your thoughts on it when you get a chance. --[[User:Cmloegcmluin\|Cmloegcmluin]] ([[User talk:Cmloegcmluin\|talk]]) 19:19, 29 September 2021 (UTC)

			: Sorry, I didn't write that passage very well. I have since edited it. I meant that having both contorsion and torsion is a problem to be avoided. --[[User:TallKite\|TallKite]] ([[User talk:TallKite\|talk]]) 00:59, 30 September 2021 (UTC)

Cmloegcmluin: Created page with "= both "contorsion" and "torsion"? = I disagree with the idea that a temperament can meaningfully have both contorsion and torsion. Actually I think that torsion only applies..."

2021-09-29T19:19:21Z

Created page with "= both "contorsion" and "torsion"? = I disagree with the idea that a temperament can meaningfully have both contorsion and torsion. Actually I think that torsion only applies..."

New page

= both "contorsion" and "torsion"? =

I disagree with the idea that a temperament can meaningfully have both contorsion and torsion. Actually I think that torsion only applies to periodicity blocks and doesn't exist for temperaments because they temper commas out. I recently published a new page here with more details: https://en.xen.wiki/w/Canonical_form#the_pathology_of_enfactoredness I'm interested in your thoughts on it when you get a chance. --[[User:Cmloegcmluin|Cmloegcmluin]] ([[User talk:Cmloegcmluin|talk]]) 19:19, 29 September 2021 (UTC)