Talk:Kite's color notation - Revision history

TallKite: /* Proposals */

2026-03-28T05:02:24Z

Proposals

← Older revision		Revision as of 05:02, 28 March 2026
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	--[[User:Eufalesio\|Eufalesio]] ([[User talk:Eufalesio\|talk]]) 19:35, 15 March 2026 (UTC)		--[[User:Eufalesio\|Eufalesio]] ([[User talk:Eufalesio\|talk]]) 19:35, 15 March 2026 (UTC)

			: Eufalasio and I discussed this privately. My opinion is that ma/xa/va/ja etc. are too much work to memorize. Likewise he/se/ho/ni etc. We agreed it would be nice to have a one-syllable word for sixfold, but couldn't come up with anything good that didn't conflict with sevenfold and seventeenfold. --[[User:TallKite\|TallKite]] ([[User talk:TallKite\|talk]]) 05:02, 28 March 2026 (UTC)

Eufalesio: Added a proposal

2026-03-15T19:36:11Z

Added a proposal

← Older revision		Revision as of 19:36, 15 March 2026
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	--[[User:TallKite\|TallKite]] ([[User talk:TallKite\|talk]]) 20:46, 8 December 2024 (UTC)		--[[User:TallKite\|TallKite]] ([[User talk:TallKite\|talk]]) 20:46, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

			== Proposals ==

			Seeing how the consonants only really apply for primes up to 11, maybe take this a step further and go all in with the consonants. Up to the 31-limit possibly. Note that I have no synesthesia so it is as meaningless for me to call 5/4 yellow as it is to say that the sun smells like honesty, so I'm just picking consonants and colors at random, if any at all. Apart from that, with these new color consonants, you should avoid any homophones. I think. I ''had'' to put e, thorn and eth, I was running out of consonants...

			If the 31-limit is way too excessive, then possibly the 13-limit could be enough. I don't know how system-breaking would all of this be, just putting it on the table to see if anything sticks.

			* large/small: o/u (since they come at the beginning no problems, reusing over/under)
			* 2: cha/cho/(chu) [c] (to avoid homophony with /k/)
			* 3: wa/wo/du [w/d]
			* 5: ya/yo/gu [y/g]
			* 7: za/zo/ru [z/g]
			* 11: ma/mo/lu [m/L] (mo comes from ''mahogany'' or Spanish ''morado'')
			* 13: tha/tho/tu [þ/t] (tu comes from ''turquoise'')
			* 17: xa/xo/su [x/s] (xo comes from Nahuatl xochitl, pink? pronounced /ʃ/)
			* 19: va/vo/nu [v/n] (v comes from ''violet'')
			* 23: ja/jo/hu [j/h] (no idea)
			* 29: ka/ko/eu [k/e] (no idea, e not a consonant)
			* 31: dha/dho/fu [ð/f] (not a color but from ''dhirtee'', thirty in Yola pronounced /ð/, f no idea)
			* +/- degrees stay po/qu, but the qu would be pronounced /kwə/

			For multipliers:

			I think adopting more could be helpful, to make more use out of vowels
			* bi (2)
			* tri (3)
			* qua (4)
			* quin (5)
			* he (6)
			* se (7)
			* ho (8)
			* ni (9)
			* ge (10)
			* le (11)
			* the (13)
			* xe (17)
			* ve (19)
			* je (23)
			* ke (29)
			* dhe (31)

			Examples:
			* 9801/9800: bimorugu comma, mmrrgg1
			* 4096/4095: uturugu comma, utrg1
			* Schisma: oyo comma, oy-2
			* Chalmersia: othotholurugugu comma, oþþlrgg1
			* 19/17: vosu second, vs2
			* 29/23: koju third, kj3
			* Vavoom comma: quinoxeyo comma, o<sup>5</sup>y<sup>17</sup>-7
			* 633556/633555: nunuxotutrimo-azogu comma, nnxtm<sup>3</sup>zg1
			* 5797/5796: dhohuxomoru comma, ðjxmr-2

			--[[User:Eufalesio\|Eufalesio]] ([[User talk:Eufalesio\|talk]]) 19:35, 15 March 2026 (UTC)

TallKite: TallKite moved page Talk:Color notation to Talk:Kite's color notation over redirect: Editor VectorGraphics has repeatedly edited pages I've written about my own research and inserted misinformation. On discord he is openly hostile to me. This move is necessary to avoid a toxic work environment for me.

2025-08-20T00:45:12Z

TallKite moved page Talk:Color notation to Talk:Kite's color notation over redirect: Editor VectorGraphics has repeatedly edited pages I've written about my own research and inserted misinformation. On discord he is openly hostile to me. This move is necessary to avoid a toxic work environment for me.

← Older revision	Revision as of 00:45, 20 August 2025
(No difference)

TallKite: added a humorous poem

2024-12-08T20:46:14Z

added a humorous poem

← Older revision		Revision as of 20:46, 8 December 2024
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	If there were a rigorous algorithm for finding the "best" ratio for a certain edostep, then the resulting scale could be the yaza19 (or whatever) scale. But one can prioritize minimizing the odd limit vs. maximizing the accuracy differently. Thus there are multiple plausible yaza19 scales, and "yaza19" would refer to a category of scales, not just one. --[[User:TallKite\|TallKite]] ([[User talk:TallKite\|talk]]) 09:28, 28 October 2024 (UTC)		If there were a rigorous algorithm for finding the "best" ratio for a certain edostep, then the resulting scale could be the yaza19 (or whatever) scale. But one can prioritize minimizing the odd limit vs. maximizing the accuracy differently. Thus there are multiple plausible yaza19 scales, and "yaza19" would refer to a category of scales, not just one. --[[User:TallKite\|TallKite]] ([[User talk:TallKite\|talk]]) 09:28, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

			== Colorspeak tensome ==

			Colorspeak's easy and colorspeak's pretty<br>
			Colorspeak's pithy/pyth-y and colorspeak's witty<br>
			Even if people insist otherwise,<br>
			Colorspeak is a delight to my eyes \|\| 1 \|\|<br>

			Color notation is fit for the sages,<br>
			Simple and easy and good for all ages,<br>
			Colorspeak makes it clear what music is,<br>
			Learning it makes you a harmony whiz \|\| 2 \|\|

			Porcupine, magic, vavoom and mavila,<br>
			Meantone and schismic and bleu and godzilla,<br>
			Temperament names with no logic or rhyme,<br>
			Learning all those takes up way too much time \|\| 3 \|\|

			I wanted to find out the perfect notation,<br>
			I made many friends with the same dedication,<br>
			The prospects were looking so terribly bleak,<br>
			Till one day I stumbled upon colorspeak \|\| 4 \|\|

			Colorspeak helps us pursue meditation,<br>
			Nothing's effective like color notation,<br>
			My favorite yoga pose beats out the rest<br>
			Yazalathasana's simply the best \|\| 5 \|\|

			Cherries make every fruit salad more pleasant,<br>
			Roses and orchids enrich every present<br>
			Honeymoon nights are enriched by the moon,<br>
			Color enriches the score of my tune \|\| 6 \|\|

			If you're a choral or barbershop singer,<br>
			And you're not sure, on what pitch you should linger,<br>
			Common notation will not give a clue,<br>
			But color notation will truly help you \|\| 7 \|\|

			Color notation is great for conductors,<br>
			Musical theorists and college instructors,<br>
			No fuss over pental and septimal thirds,<br>
			Colorspeak has much more elegant words \|\| 8 \|\|

			Learning two new words is all you need to do,<br>
			Yazalathasana, followed by guru,<br>
			To notate harmonics, turn a into o,<br>
			That's almost all that a guru must know \|\| 9 \|\|

			If you're confused about music notation,<br>
			These ten little stanzas will ease your frustration,<br>
			Notational matters will not leave you stressed,<br>
			'Cause color notation is simply the best \|\| 10 \|\|

			-- Praveen Venkataramana (2024)

			--[[User:TallKite\|TallKite]] ([[User talk:TallKite\|talk]]) 20:46, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

TallKite: Colorspeak names for detempered edos?

2024-10-28T09:28:21Z

Colorspeak names for detempered edos?

← Older revision		Revision as of 09:28, 28 October 2024
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	:: I also think "ha/ba" is a decent enough replacement for the "la/sa" pair. It uses consonants no color uses, it's derived from italian "alta/bassa" (except with "h" added for a consonant, also invoking "high") which refers to both sets' fifth-shift and pitch relative to the Central row. I won't get to check for conflicts with "b" as the flat sign nor "8va/8vb" for a while, however. [[User:Kaiveran\|Kaiveran]] ([[User talk:Kaiveran\|talk]]) 02:16, 4 August 2024 (UTC)		:: I also think "ha/ba" is a decent enough replacement for the "la/sa" pair. It uses consonants no color uses, it's derived from italian "alta/bassa" (except with "h" added for a consonant, also invoking "high") which refers to both sets' fifth-shift and pitch relative to the Central row. I won't get to check for conflicts with "b" as the flat sign nor "8va/8vb" for a while, however. [[User:Kaiveran\|Kaiveran]] ([[User talk:Kaiveran\|talk]]) 02:16, 4 August 2024 (UTC)
	::: Sawa 2nd becomes bw2, which looks like a flat wa 2nd. IMO a little too confusing. --[[User:TallKite\|TallKite]] ([[User talk:TallKite\|talk]]) 10:11, 8 August 2024 (UTC)		::: Sawa 2nd becomes bw2, which looks like a flat wa 2nd. IMO a little too confusing. --[[User:TallKite\|TallKite]] ([[User talk:TallKite\|talk]]) 10:11, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

			: After lengthy discussion in XA Discord, fo/fu/fa and so/su/sa didn't seem clearly better than the current system, which is rather entrenched at this point. But the suffix "-ti" has been officially adopted. --[[User:TallKite\|TallKite]] ([[User talk:TallKite\|talk]]) 09:28, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

			== Colorspeak names for detempered edos? ==
			Za5 could refer to 5edo detempered using the 2.3.7 subgroup, making 1/1 8/7 4/3 3/2 7/4 2/1. Wa5 would be 1/1 9/8 4/3 3/2 16/9 2/1. Yaza19 would be 19edo detempered using the 2.3.5.7 subgroup.

			If there were a rigorous algorithm for finding the "best" ratio for a certain edostep, then the resulting scale could be the yaza19 (or whatever) scale. But one can prioritize minimizing the odd limit vs. maximizing the accuracy differently. Thus there are multiple plausible yaza19 scales, and "yaza19" would refer to a category of scales, not just one. --[[User:TallKite\|TallKite]] ([[User talk:TallKite\|talk]]) 09:28, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

TallKite: /* Possible simplification of colorspeak */

2024-08-08T10:11:19Z

Possible simplification of colorspeak

← Older revision		Revision as of 10:11, 8 August 2024
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	:: As a longtime fan of Color Notation, I vouch for the "fo/so" version of this proposal.		:: As a longtime fan of Color Notation, I vouch for the "fo/so" version of this proposal.
	:: I also think "ha/ba" is a decent enough replacement for the "la/sa" pair. It uses consonants no color uses, it's derived from italian "alta/bassa" (except with "h" added for a consonant, also invoking "high") which refers to both sets' fifth-shift and pitch relative to the Central row. I won't get to check for conflicts with "b" as the flat sign nor "8va/8vb" for a while, however. [[User:Kaiveran\|Kaiveran]] ([[User talk:Kaiveran\|talk]]) 02:16, 4 August 2024 (UTC)		:: I also think "ha/ba" is a decent enough replacement for the "la/sa" pair. It uses consonants no color uses, it's derived from italian "alta/bassa" (except with "h" added for a consonant, also invoking "high") which refers to both sets' fifth-shift and pitch relative to the Central row. I won't get to check for conflicts with "b" as the flat sign nor "8va/8vb" for a while, however. [[User:Kaiveran\|Kaiveran]] ([[User talk:Kaiveran\|talk]]) 02:16, 4 August 2024 (UTC)
			::: Sawa 2nd becomes bw2, which looks like a flat wa 2nd. IMO a little too confusing. --[[User:TallKite\|TallKite]] ([[User talk:TallKite\|talk]]) 10:11, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

Kaiveran: /* Possible simplification of colorspeak */

2024-08-04T02:16:50Z

Possible simplification of colorspeak

← Older revision		Revision as of 02:16, 4 August 2024
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	: * add -ti meaning "T", short for temperament, as in Fu = 81/80, Futi = meantone temperament		: * add -ti meaning "T", short for temperament, as in Fu = 81/80, Futi = meantone temperament
	: --[[User:TallKite\|TallKite]] ([[User talk:TallKite\|talk]]) 08:49, 3 August 2024 (UTC)		: --[[User:TallKite\|TallKite]] ([[User talk:TallKite\|talk]]) 08:49, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

			:: As a longtime fan of Color Notation, I vouch for the "fo/so" version of this proposal.
			:: I also think "ha/ba" is a decent enough replacement for the "la/sa" pair. It uses consonants no color uses, it's derived from italian "alta/bassa" (except with "h" added for a consonant, also invoking "high") which refers to both sets' fifth-shift and pitch relative to the Central row. I won't get to check for conflicts with "b" as the flat sign nor "8va/8vb" for a while, however. [[User:Kaiveran\|Kaiveran]] ([[User talk:Kaiveran\|talk]]) 02:16, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

TallKite at 08:49, 3 August 2024

2024-08-03T08:49:50Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 08:49, 3 August 2024
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	--[[User:TallKite\|TallKite]] ([[User talk:TallKite\|talk]]) 06:50, 3 August 2024 (UTC)		--[[User:TallKite\|TallKite]] ([[User talk:TallKite\|talk]]) 06:50, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

			: Other proposals:
			: * replace la/sa = large/small with something else, to avoid conflict with la = 11-all and sa = 7-all
			: * add -ti meaning "T", short for temperament, as in Fu = 81/80, Futi = meantone temperament
			: --[[User:TallKite\|TallKite]] ([[User talk:TallKite\|talk]]) 08:49, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

TallKite at 06:50, 3 August 2024

2024-08-03T06:50:36Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 06:50, 3 August 2024
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	== Possible "de-heptatonicization" of colorspeak ==		== Possible "de-heptatonicization" of colorspeak ==
	Color notation uses the conventional heptatonic degrees 2nd, 3rd, 4th, etc. It's possible to avoid this by using "wo" and "wu" to mean 3-over and 3-under. Thus 10/9 would be not "yo 2nd" but "yowuwu". 27/16 would be "triwo". The Ptolomaic scale would be wa, wowo, yo, wu, wo, yowu, yowo, cowa. Presumably this would free up one's thinking, but one would lose the rough estimate of an interval's size that the degree provides, and it would be difficult to tell how big something like zoguwuwu is. I don't personally recommend this notation, just noting the possibility here. --[[User:TallKite\|TallKite]] ([[User talk:TallKite\|talk]]) 06:17, 12 July 2023 (UTC)		Color notation uses the conventional heptatonic degrees 2nd, 3rd, 4th, etc. It's possible to avoid this by using "wo" and "wu" to mean 3-over and 3-under. Thus 10/9 would be not "yo 2nd" but "yowuwu". 27/16 would be "triwo". The Ptolomaic scale would be wa, wowo, yo, wu, wo, yowu, yowo, cowa. Presumably this would free up one's thinking, but one would lose the rough estimate of an interval's size that the degree provides, and it would be difficult to tell how big something like zoguwuwu is. I don't personally recommend this notation, just noting the possibility here. --[[User:TallKite\|TallKite]] ([[User talk:TallKite\|talk]]) 06:17, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

			== Possible simplification of colorspeak ==

			Primes 5 and 7 could be treated just like primes 11 and higher. Yo/gu/ya could become fo/fu/fa, and zo/ru/za could become so/su/(i)sa. This necessitates changing the prime 17 syllables from so/su/sa to something else, probably zo/zu/za. It also necessitates changing the forty- prefix from fo- to for-. Thus 41, 43 and 47 must become forwo, fortho and forso. Finally, sep- for septuple can become se-.

			{\| class="wikitable" style="text-align:center"
			\|+
			!prime
			! colspan="2" \|-o ("oh") for over
			! colspan="2" \|-u ("oo") for under
			! colspan="2" \|-a ("ah") for all
			! colspan="2" \|-e ("eh") for exponent
			\|-
			\|2
			\| colspan="2" \|—
			\| colspan="2" \|—
			\| colspan="2" \|—
			\|bi ("bee")
			\|double
			\|-
			\|3
			\| colspan="2" \|—
			\| colspan="2" \|—
			\|wa
			\|—
			\|tri ("tree")
			\|triple
			\|-
			\| colspan="7" \|
			\|quad
			\|quadruple
			\|-
			\| 5
			\|fo
			\|5o
			\| fu
			\| 5u
			\|fa
			\| 5a
			\| quin
			\| quintuple
			\|-
			\|7
			\|(i)so
			\|7o
			\|su
			\|7u
			\| (i)sa
			\| 7a
			\|se
			\|septuple
			\|-
			\|11
			\|(i)lo
			\|1o
			\|lu
			\| 1u
			\|(i)la
			\|1a
			\|le
			\|11-fold
			\|-
			\|13
			\|tho
			\|3o
			\|thu
			\|3u
			\|tha
			\|3a
			\|the
			\|13-fold
			\|-
			\|17
			\|zo
			\|17o
			\|zu
			\|17u
			\|za
			\|17a
			\|ze
			\|17-fold
			\|-
			\|19
			\|(i)no
			\|19o
			\|(i)nu
			\|19u
			\|na
			\|19a
			\|ne
			\|19-fold
			\|-
			\|23
			\|twetho
			\|23o
			\|twethu
			\|23u
			\|twetha
			\| 23a
			\|twethe
			\|23-fold
			\|}

			The 4:5:6 chord would change from Cy to C5o. Unfortunately this looks like a thirdless C chord with a flat 5th. Not a huge problem, since one can get used to it, but C5o is certainly jarring at first. Same with 6:7:9 becoming C7o which looks a lot like Co7, the conventional dim7 chord. Likewise there's C5o7 and C7o7. Another solution is to write Cfo, Cfo7, Cso and Cso7. (BTW this is why 11-over is abbreviated 1o not 11o, and 13-over is 3o not 13o. To avoid 11-limit or 13-limit triads looking like 11th chords or 13th chords.)

			The letter s gets used more frequently, perhaps overloading it slightly. For example the Sasaru comma (Ru minus Lalawa) becomes Sasasu = ss7u.

			The term "color" is still useful and would be retained to refer to any "row" of the JI lattice formed by a chain of 5ths. One could still talk about bicolored vs tricolored chords and scales. Thus the name of the notation would remain color notation or colorspeak.

			Advantages:
			* More logical, easier to learn.
			* Much better for speakers of languages that don't distinguish between r and l.

			Disadvantages:
			* The rainbow metaphor gets lost. (But it breaks down at some point with higher primes anyway.)
			* Widely used 7-limit colors become less concise: y -> 5o, yy -> 5oo, zg -> 7o5u, etc. Thus staff music becomes more cluttered and chord names become longer.
			* The 7-limit comma names become more "same-y", with s and f replacing y, g, z and r.
			* The 4:5:6 triad becomes C5o, which looks like a diminished dyad. (Or it becomes Cfo.)
			* The 6:7:9 triad becomes C7o, which looks like a dim 7th chord. (Or it becomes Cso.)
			* Fa, the new word for five-all i.e. 5-limit, sounds like the solfege word Fa.
			* The current nomenclature is widely used in the xenwiki and various apps.

			--[[User:TallKite\|TallKite]] ([[User talk:TallKite\|talk]]) 06:50, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

TallKite: added some possible modifications/extensions of colorspeak

2023-07-12T06:17:36Z

added some possible modifications/extensions of colorspeak

← Older revision		Revision as of 06:17, 12 July 2023
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	A 2.27.whatever subgroup would be triwa. Using 4 instead of 2 would have the unfortunate name "caca". Maybe call it bica instead? Not sure how to name subgroups like 2.3.35 or 2.3.7/5 or 2.7/5.9/5.		A 2.27.whatever subgroup would be triwa. Using 4 instead of 2 would have the unfortunate name "caca". Maybe call it bica instead? Not sure how to name subgroups like 2.3.35 or 2.3.7/5 or 2.7/5.9/5.
	--[[User:TallKite\|TallKite]] ([[User talk:TallKite\|talk]]) 22:01, 21 March 2022 (UTC)		--[[User:TallKite\|TallKite]] ([[User talk:TallKite\|talk]]) 22:01, 21 March 2022 (UTC)

			: Yaza means 2.3.5.7. Barbershop is yaza, but they avoid 7-under intervals. Thus it could be described as yazo music. --[[User:TallKite\|TallKite]] ([[User talk:TallKite\|talk]]) 06:17, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

			== Possible "de-colorization" of colorspeak ==
			The five colors wa, yo, gu, zo and ru could all be replaced with words derived directly from the words three, five and seven. This requires a new syllable "te" that means ten or teen, used for primes 13, 17, and 19.

			{\| class="wikitable" style="text-align:center"
			\|+
			!prime
			! colspan="2" \|-o ("oh") for over
			! colspan="2" \|-u ("oo") for under
			! colspan="2" \|-a ("ah") for all
			! colspan="2" \|-e ("eh") for exponent
			\|-
			\|2
			\| colspan="2" \|—
			\| colspan="2" \|—
			\|twa
			\|—
			\|bi ("bee")
			\|squared
			\|-
			\|3
			\| colspan="2" \|—
			\| colspan="2" \|—
			\|tha
			\|—
			\|tri ("tree")
			\|cubed
			\|-
			\| 5
			\|fo
			\|5o
			\| fu
			\| 5u
			\|fa
			\| 5a
			\| fe
			\| ^5
			\|-
			\|7
			\|iso
			\|7o
			\|su
			\|7u
			\| isa
			\| 7a
			\|se
			\|^7
			\|-
			\|11
			\|ilo
			\|1o
			\|lu
			\| 1u
			\|ila
			\|1a
			\|le
			\|^11
			\|-
			\|13
			\|tetho
			\|3o
			\|tethu
			\|3u
			\|tetha
			\|3a
			\|tethe
			\|^13
			\|-
			\|17
			\|teso
			\|17o
			\|tesu
			\|17u
			\|tesa
			\|17a
			\|tese
			\|^17
			\|-
			\|19
			\|teno
			\|19o
			\|tenu
			\|19u
			\|tena
			\|19a
			\|tene
			\|^19
			\|}

			Currently, 41, 43 and 47 are fowo, fotho and foso. But fotho looks like 5-over 3-over. So 41, 43 and 47 must become forwo, fortho and forso.

			Advantages:
			* More logical, easier to learn.
			* fewer homonyms: no more "wa", "no" or "nu".

			Disadvantages:
			* The names of intervals using primes 13, 17 and 19 become less concise.
			* Widely used 7-limit colors become less concise: yy -> 5oo, zg -> 7o5u, likewise for ry, rg, zy, ryy, etc.
			* The 4:5:6 triad becomes C5o, which looks like a dyad.
			* The 6:7:9 triad becomes C7o, which looks like a 7th chord.
			* The current nomenclature is widely used in the xenwiki and various apps.

			This could be taken further and ilo/lu/ila could become tewo/tewu/tewa. Or it could be taken not as far, and wa could be retained for prime 3, allowing tho/thu/tha for prime 13.

			Overall I think the disadvantages of decolorization outweigh the advantages. Just noting the possibility here. --[[User:TallKite\|TallKite]] ([[User talk:TallKite\|talk]]) 06:17, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

			== Possible "de-heptatonicization" of colorspeak ==
			Color notation uses the conventional heptatonic degrees 2nd, 3rd, 4th, etc. It's possible to avoid this by using "wo" and "wu" to mean 3-over and 3-under. Thus 10/9 would be not "yo 2nd" but "yowuwu". 27/16 would be "triwo". The Ptolomaic scale would be wa, wowo, yo, wu, wo, yowu, yowo, cowa. Presumably this would free up one's thinking, but one would lose the rough estimate of an interval's size that the degree provides, and it would be difficult to tell how big something like zoguwuwu is. I don't personally recommend this notation, just noting the possibility here. --[[User:TallKite\|TallKite]] ([[User talk:TallKite\|talk]]) 06:17, 12 July 2023 (UTC)