Talk:Helmholtz–Ellis notation - Revision history

Lucius Chiaraviglio: /* Dual-value harmonics (Helmholtz-Ellis edition)? */ Not for use with tempered systems, but Sagittal is

2025-08-25T03:18:27Z

Dual-value harmonics (Helmholtz-Ellis edition)?: Not for use with tempered systems, but Sagittal is

← Older revision		Revision as of 03:18, 25 August 2025
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	: The short answer is HEJI is generally not meant to be used in tempered systems. To notate a tempered system, you use the "equal-tempered accidentals" it provides, prolly with written cent deviations. [[User:FloraC\|FloraC]] ([[User talk:FloraC\|talk]]) 12:26, 24 August 2025 (UTC)		: The short answer is HEJI is generally not meant to be used in tempered systems. To notate a tempered system, you use the "equal-tempered accidentals" it provides, prolly with written cent deviations. [[User:FloraC\|FloraC]] ([[User talk:FloraC\|talk]]) 12:26, 24 August 2025 (UTC)

			:: That makes sense. Good thing I asked separately for Sagittal, since at least according to the article, that is explicitly meant to be used with tempered systems. [[User:Lucius Chiaraviglio\|Lucius Chiaraviglio]] ([[User talk:Lucius Chiaraviglio\|talk]]) 03:18, 25 August 2025 (UTC)

FloraC: Re

2025-08-24T12:26:13Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 12:26, 24 August 2025
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	== Dual-value harmonics (Helmholtz-Ellis edition)? ==		== Dual-value harmonics (Helmholtz-Ellis edition)? ==
	What notation should one use for systems with dual values for a harmonic? For instance, 55edo has a 7th harmonic that is far enough from just to merit interpretation as 7♯ with only mostly more raw error than 7♭, and the 7♯ would actually introduce less error in combination with the sharp (but not split) 5th harmonic, while 7♭ would introduce less error in combination withe flat 3rd and 11th harmonics or by itself. Similar situations occur with 48edo and 67edo with their split 5th harmonics, and with any dual-fifth system. (Posting this separately in Talk pages for Helmholtz-Ellis and Sagittal in case they have different answers.) [[User:Lucius Chiaraviglio\|Lucius Chiaraviglio]] ([[User talk:Lucius Chiaraviglio\|talk]]) 09:36, 24 August 2025 (UTC)		What notation should one use for systems with dual values for a harmonic? For instance, 55edo has a 7th harmonic that is far enough from just to merit interpretation as 7♯ with only mostly more raw error than 7♭, and the 7♯ would actually introduce less error in combination with the sharp (but not split) 5th harmonic, while 7♭ would introduce less error in combination withe flat 3rd and 11th harmonics or by itself. Similar situations occur with 48edo and 67edo with their split 5th harmonics, and with any dual-fifth system. (Posting this separately in Talk pages for Helmholtz-Ellis and Sagittal in case they have different answers.) [[User:Lucius Chiaraviglio\|Lucius Chiaraviglio]] ([[User talk:Lucius Chiaraviglio\|talk]]) 09:36, 24 August 2025 (UTC)

			: The short answer is HEJI is generally not meant to be used in tempered systems. To notate a tempered system, you use the "equal-tempered accidentals" it provides, prolly with written cent deviations. [[User:FloraC\|FloraC]] ([[User talk:FloraC\|talk]]) 12:26, 24 August 2025 (UTC)

Lucius Chiaraviglio: /* Dual-value harmonics (Helmholtz-Ellis edition)? */ Add reason for posting same question in both Helmholtz-Ellis and Sagittal Talk pages

2025-08-24T09:36:51Z

Dual-value harmonics (Helmholtz-Ellis edition)?: Add reason for posting same question in both Helmholtz-Ellis and Sagittal Talk pages

← Older revision		Revision as of 09:36, 24 August 2025
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	== Dual-value harmonics (Helmholtz-Ellis edition)? ==		== Dual-value harmonics (Helmholtz-Ellis edition)? ==
	What notation should one use for systems with dual values for a harmonic? For instance, 55edo has a 7th harmonic that is far enough from just to merit interpretation as 7♯ with only mostly more raw error than 7♭, and the 7♯ would actually introduce less error in combination with the sharp (but not split) 5th harmonic, while 7♭ would introduce less error in combination withe flat 3rd and 11th harmonics or by itself. Similar situations occur with 48edo and 67edo with their split 5th harmonics, and with any dual-fifth system. [[User:Lucius Chiaraviglio\|Lucius Chiaraviglio]] ([[User talk:Lucius Chiaraviglio\|talk]]) 09:15, 24 August 2025 (UTC)		What notation should one use for systems with dual values for a harmonic? For instance, 55edo has a 7th harmonic that is far enough from just to merit interpretation as 7♯ with only mostly more raw error than 7♭, and the 7♯ would actually introduce less error in combination with the sharp (but not split) 5th harmonic, while 7♭ would introduce less error in combination withe flat 3rd and 11th harmonics or by itself. Similar situations occur with 48edo and 67edo with their split 5th harmonics, and with any dual-fifth system. (Posting this separately in Talk pages for Helmholtz-Ellis and Sagittal in case they have different answers.) [[User:Lucius Chiaraviglio\|Lucius Chiaraviglio]] ([[User talk:Lucius Chiaraviglio\|talk]]) 09:36, 24 August 2025 (UTC)

Lucius Chiaraviglio: Dual-value harmonics?

2025-08-24T09:15:37Z

Dual-value harmonics?

← Older revision		Revision as of 09:15, 24 August 2025
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	:: Okay, thanks, it makes sense now. (And then we have to wait for whoever is in charge of the Helmholtz-Ellis standard to realize that the 23-limit symbols could cause confusion). [[User:Lucius Chiaraviglio\|Lucius Chiaraviglio]] ([[User talk:Lucius Chiaraviglio\|talk]]) 19:00, 12 July 2025 (UTC)		:: Okay, thanks, it makes sense now. (And then we have to wait for whoever is in charge of the Helmholtz-Ellis standard to realize that the 23-limit symbols could cause confusion). [[User:Lucius Chiaraviglio\|Lucius Chiaraviglio]] ([[User talk:Lucius Chiaraviglio\|talk]]) 19:00, 12 July 2025 (UTC)

			== Dual-value harmonics (Helmholtz-Ellis edition)? ==
			What notation should one use for systems with dual values for a harmonic? For instance, 55edo has a 7th harmonic that is far enough from just to merit interpretation as 7♯ with only mostly more raw error than 7♭, and the 7♯ would actually introduce less error in combination with the sharp (but not split) 5th harmonic, while 7♭ would introduce less error in combination withe flat 3rd and 11th harmonics or by itself. Similar situations occur with 48edo and 67edo with their split 5th harmonics, and with any dual-fifth system. [[User:Lucius Chiaraviglio\|Lucius Chiaraviglio]] ([[User talk:Lucius Chiaraviglio\|talk]]) 09:15, 24 August 2025 (UTC)

Lucius Chiaraviglio: /* 31-limit schisma and 41-limit comma symbols */ Deprecated symbols section does help

2025-07-12T19:00:55Z

31-limit schisma and 41-limit comma symbols: Deprecated symbols section does help

← Older revision		Revision as of 19:00, 12 July 2025
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	: The 31-limit schismata come from the deprecated pre-2020 version. Since 2020 the quartertone accidentals have been standard. I split off the deprecated symbols to hopefully make this clearer. [[User:FloraC\|FloraC]] ([[User talk:FloraC\|talk]]) 13:36, 12 July 2025 (UTC)		: The 31-limit schismata come from the deprecated pre-2020 version. Since 2020 the quartertone accidentals have been standard. I split off the deprecated symbols to hopefully make this clearer. [[User:FloraC\|FloraC]] ([[User talk:FloraC\|talk]]) 13:36, 12 July 2025 (UTC)

			:: Okay, thanks, it makes sense now. (And then we have to wait for whoever is in charge of the Helmholtz-Ellis standard to realize that the 23-limit symbols could cause confusion). [[User:Lucius Chiaraviglio\|Lucius Chiaraviglio]] ([[User talk:Lucius Chiaraviglio\|talk]]) 19:00, 12 July 2025 (UTC)

FloraC: Re

2025-07-12T13:36:09Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 13:36, 12 July 2025
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	{{High priority}}		{{High priority}}
	== 29- and higher-limit accidentals ==		== 29- and higher-limit accidentals ==
			Could someone please do the 29-limit and higher accidentals? This has been a "TODO" for a while now. [[User:ArrowHead294\|<math>\overrightarrow{\,\,\scriptsize\text{ArrowHead294}\,\,\,}</math>]] [[User talk:ArrowHead294\|(speak to me)]] 13:24, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

	~~Could someone please do the 29-limit and higher accidentals? This has been a "TODO" for a while now~~. [[User:~~ArrowHead294~~\|~~<math>\overrightarrow{\,\,\scriptsize\text{ArrowHead294}\,\,\,}</math>~~]] [[User talk:~~ArrowHead294~~\|~~(speak to me)~~]] 13:24, ~~22 May 2024~~ (UTC)		: Updated thanks to User: FilterNashi. [[User:FloraC\|FloraC]] ([[User talk:FloraC\|talk]]) 13:36, 12 July 2025 (UTC)

	== 23-limit vs syntonic comma arrows ==		== 23-limit vs syntonic comma arrows ==
			I don't know if this is anything you can actually do anything about (if it's the actual standard, it's the actual standard), but those 23-limit comma arrows look EXTREMELY SIMILAR to single syntonic comma arrows, with the only discernable difference that the syntonic comma arrows are shown attached to other accidental symbols, whereas the 23-limit comma arrows are shown by themselves. [[User:Lucius Chiaraviglio\|Lucius Chiaraviglio]] ([[User talk:Lucius Chiaraviglio\|talk]]) 22:49, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

	~~I don't know if this is anything you can actually do anything about (if~~ it's ~~the actual standard, it's the actual standard), but those 23-limit comma arrows look EXTREMELY SIMILAR to single syntonic comma arrows, with the only discernable difference~~ that ~~the syntonic comma arrows are shown attached to other accidental symbols, whereas the 23-limit comma arrows are shown by themselves~~. [[User:~~Lucius Chiaraviglio~~\|~~Lucius Chiaraviglio~~]] ([[User talk:~~Lucius Chiaraviglio~~\|talk]]) 22:49, ~~11 August 2024~~ (UTC)		: It seems it's always been like that. [[User:FloraC\|FloraC]] ([[User talk:FloraC\|talk]]) 13:36, 12 July 2025 (UTC)

	== Typo in Latest revision as of 2024-11-19T14:22:59? ==		== Typo in Latest revision as of 2024-11-19T14:22:59? ==
			Latest revision says "[[File:Heji41.svg\|54x54px]] is ''n'' a half-sharp, as [[File:Heji41.svg\|54x54px]][[File:Heji41.svg\|54x54px]]F is [[243/242\|7.1¢]] flatter than F♯." (used to have ''not'' instead of ''n''). Is this a typo/copy-paste error? [[User:Lucius Chiaraviglio\|Lucius Chiaraviglio]] ([[User talk:Lucius Chiaraviglio\|talk]]) 20:18, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

	Latest revision says "[[File:Heji41.svg\|54x54px]] is ''n'' a half-sharp, as [[File:Heji41.svg\|54x54px]][[File:Heji41.svg\|54x54px]]F is [[243/242\|7.1¢]] flatter than F♯." (used to have ''not'' instead of ''n''). Is this a typo/copy-paste error? [[User:Lucius Chiaraviglio\|Lucius Chiaraviglio]] ([[User talk:Lucius Chiaraviglio\|talk]]) 20:18, 19 November 2024 (UTC)
	: FloraC fixed it in revision of 2024-11-21T04:39:55. [[User:Lucius Chiaraviglio\|Lucius Chiaraviglio]] ([[User talk:Lucius Chiaraviglio\|talk]]) 11:10, 21 November 2024 (UTC)		: FloraC fixed it in revision of 2024-11-21T04:39:55. [[User:Lucius Chiaraviglio\|Lucius Chiaraviglio]] ([[User talk:Lucius Chiaraviglio\|talk]]) 11:10, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

	== 31-limit schisma and 41-limit comma symbols ==		== 31-limit schisma and 41-limit comma symbols ==
			I don't know if you can do anything about it (if it's the standard, it's the standard), but the symbols for up/down by 31-limit schisma look extremely similar to the symbols for up/down by 41-limit comma. [[User:Lucius Chiaraviglio\|Lucius Chiaraviglio]] ([[User talk:Lucius Chiaraviglio\|talk]]) 07:30, 12 July 2025 (UTC)

	~~I don't know if you can do anything about it (if it's~~ the ~~standard, it's~~ the standard~~), but~~ the symbols ~~for up/down by 31-limit schisma look extremely similar~~ to ~~the symbols for up/down by 41-limit comma~~. [[User:~~Lucius Chiaraviglio~~\|~~Lucius Chiaraviglio~~]] ([[User talk:~~Lucius Chiaraviglio~~\|talk]]) 07:30, 12 July 2025 (UTC)		: The 31-limit schismata come from the deprecated pre-2020 version. Since 2020 the quartertone accidentals have been standard. I split off the deprecated symbols to hopefully make this clearer. [[User:FloraC\|FloraC]] ([[User talk:FloraC\|talk]]) 13:36, 12 July 2025 (UTC)

Lucius Chiaraviglio: /* 31-limit schisma and 41-limit comma symbols */ new section

2025-07-12T07:30:40Z

31-limit schisma and 41-limit comma symbols: new section

← Older revision		Revision as of 07:30, 12 July 2025
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	Latest revision says "[[File:Heji41.svg\|54x54px]] is ''n'' a half-sharp, as [[File:Heji41.svg\|54x54px]][[File:Heji41.svg\|54x54px]]F is [[243/242\|7.1¢]] flatter than F♯." (used to have ''not'' instead of ''n''). Is this a typo/copy-paste error? [[User:Lucius Chiaraviglio\|Lucius Chiaraviglio]] ([[User talk:Lucius Chiaraviglio\|talk]]) 20:18, 19 November 2024 (UTC)		Latest revision says "[[File:Heji41.svg\|54x54px]] is ''n'' a half-sharp, as [[File:Heji41.svg\|54x54px]][[File:Heji41.svg\|54x54px]]F is [[243/242\|7.1¢]] flatter than F♯." (used to have ''not'' instead of ''n''). Is this a typo/copy-paste error? [[User:Lucius Chiaraviglio\|Lucius Chiaraviglio]] ([[User talk:Lucius Chiaraviglio\|talk]]) 20:18, 19 November 2024 (UTC)
	: FloraC fixed it in revision of 2024-11-21T04:39:55. [[User:Lucius Chiaraviglio\|Lucius Chiaraviglio]] ([[User talk:Lucius Chiaraviglio\|talk]]) 11:10, 21 November 2024 (UTC)		: FloraC fixed it in revision of 2024-11-21T04:39:55. [[User:Lucius Chiaraviglio\|Lucius Chiaraviglio]] ([[User talk:Lucius Chiaraviglio\|talk]]) 11:10, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

			== 31-limit schisma and 41-limit comma symbols ==

			I don't know if you can do anything about it (if it's the standard, it's the standard), but the symbols for up/down by 31-limit schisma look extremely similar to the symbols for up/down by 41-limit comma. [[User:Lucius Chiaraviglio\|Lucius Chiaraviglio]] ([[User talk:Lucius Chiaraviglio\|talk]]) 07:30, 12 July 2025 (UTC)

BudjarnLambeth: Priority (more monthly Google clicks than zeta; most of any notation page)

2025-04-22T04:45:08Z

Priority (more monthly Google clicks than zeta; most of any notation page)

← Older revision		Revision as of 04:45, 22 April 2025
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			{{High priority}}
	== 29- and higher-limit accidentals ==		== 29- and higher-limit accidentals ==

Lucius Chiaraviglio: /* Typo in Latest revision as of 2024-11-19T14:22:59? */ Fixed in revision of 2024-11-21T04:39:55

2024-11-21T11:10:18Z

Typo in Latest revision as of 2024-11-19T14:22:59?: Fixed in revision of 2024-11-21T04:39:55

← Older revision		Revision as of 11:10, 21 November 2024
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	Latest revision says "[[File:Heji41.svg\|54x54px]] is ''n'' a half-sharp, as [[File:Heji41.svg\|54x54px]][[File:Heji41.svg\|54x54px]]F is [[243/242\|7.1¢]] flatter than F♯." (used to have ''not'' instead of ''n''). Is this a typo/copy-paste error? [[User:Lucius Chiaraviglio\|Lucius Chiaraviglio]] ([[User talk:Lucius Chiaraviglio\|talk]]) 20:18, 19 November 2024 (UTC)		Latest revision says "[[File:Heji41.svg\|54x54px]] is ''n'' a half-sharp, as [[File:Heji41.svg\|54x54px]][[File:Heji41.svg\|54x54px]]F is [[243/242\|7.1¢]] flatter than F♯." (used to have ''not'' instead of ''n''). Is this a typo/copy-paste error? [[User:Lucius Chiaraviglio\|Lucius Chiaraviglio]] ([[User talk:Lucius Chiaraviglio\|talk]]) 20:18, 19 November 2024 (UTC)
			: FloraC fixed it in revision of 2024-11-21T04:39:55. [[User:Lucius Chiaraviglio\|Lucius Chiaraviglio]] ([[User talk:Lucius Chiaraviglio\|talk]]) 11:10, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

Lucius Chiaraviglio: /* Typo in Latest revision as of 2024-11-19T14:22:59? */

2024-11-19T20:18:28Z

Typo in Latest revision as of 2024-11-19T14:22:59?

← Older revision		Revision as of 20:18, 19 November 2024
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	I don't know if this is anything you can actually do anything about (if it's the actual standard, it's the actual standard), but those 23-limit comma arrows look EXTREMELY SIMILAR to single syntonic comma arrows, with the only discernable difference that the syntonic comma arrows are shown attached to other accidental symbols, whereas the 23-limit comma arrows are shown by themselves. [[User:Lucius Chiaraviglio\|Lucius Chiaraviglio]] ([[User talk:Lucius Chiaraviglio\|talk]]) 22:49, 11 August 2024 (UTC)		I don't know if this is anything you can actually do anything about (if it's the actual standard, it's the actual standard), but those 23-limit comma arrows look EXTREMELY SIMILAR to single syntonic comma arrows, with the only discernable difference that the syntonic comma arrows are shown attached to other accidental symbols, whereas the 23-limit comma arrows are shown by themselves. [[User:Lucius Chiaraviglio\|Lucius Chiaraviglio]] ([[User talk:Lucius Chiaraviglio\|talk]]) 22:49, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

			== Typo in Latest revision as of 2024-11-19T14:22:59? ==

			Latest revision says "[[File:Heji41.svg\|54x54px]] is ''n'' a half-sharp, as [[File:Heji41.svg\|54x54px]][[File:Heji41.svg\|54x54px]]F is [[243/242\|7.1¢]] flatter than F♯." (used to have ''not'' instead of ''n''). Is this a typo/copy-paste error? [[User:Lucius Chiaraviglio\|Lucius Chiaraviglio]] ([[User talk:Lucius Chiaraviglio\|talk]]) 20:18, 19 November 2024 (UTC)