Talk:Diesis - Revision history

FloraC at 06:48, 10 June 2026

2026-06-10T06:48:03Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 06:48, 10 June 2026
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	== Merge with diesis ==		== Topics imported from Diesis (scale theory) ==
			=== Merge with diesis ===
	[[Diesis]] is already a disambiguation page, so I'd prefer just having one.		[[Diesis]] is already a disambiguation page, so I'd prefer just having one.

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	::: ''Enharmonic diesis'' should redirect here. The term is parallel to ''diatonic semitone'' and ''chromatic semitone''. [[User:FloraC\|FloraC]] ([[User talk:FloraC\|talk]]) 12:48, 21 April 2025 (UTC)		::: ''Enharmonic diesis'' should redirect here. The term is parallel to ''diatonic semitone'' and ''chromatic semitone''. [[User:FloraC\|FloraC]] ([[User talk:FloraC\|talk]]) 12:48, 21 April 2025 (UTC)

	== "Inverse" diesis? ==		: Merged. —[[User:FloraC\|FloraC]] ([[User talk:FloraC\|talk]]) 06:47, 10 June 2026 (UTC)

			=== "Inverse" diesis? ===
	The notion that the diesis can be either +12 fifths (as in pyth) or -12 fifths (as in meantone) is sure to cause some problems. In meantone the diesis is a positive interval, but in pyth it is a negative interval; I think it is much more appropiate to say that the pyth comma is a ''negative'' diesis, as it is -d2, not d2. Fix dieses to be -12 fifths and everything works out. --[[User:Eufalesio\|Eufalesio]] ([[User talk:Eufalesio\|talk]]) 08:40, 10 April 2026 (UTC)		The notion that the diesis can be either +12 fifths (as in pyth) or -12 fifths (as in meantone) is sure to cause some problems. In meantone the diesis is a positive interval, but in pyth it is a negative interval; I think it is much more appropiate to say that the pyth comma is a ''negative'' diesis, as it is -d2, not d2. Fix dieses to be -12 fifths and everything works out. --[[User:Eufalesio\|Eufalesio]] ([[User talk:Eufalesio\|talk]]) 08:40, 10 April 2026 (UTC)

FloraC: FloraC moved page Talk:Diesis (scale theory) to Talk:Diesis

2026-06-10T06:46:36Z

FloraC moved page Talk:Diesis (scale theory) to Talk:Diesis

← Older revision	Revision as of 06:46, 10 June 2026
(No difference)

FloraC: /* "Inverse" diesis? */ re

2026-04-11T09:33:26Z

"Inverse" diesis?: re

← Older revision		Revision as of 09:33, 11 April 2026
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	:: This is the scale theory diesis, not the interval region. Having the diesis be always positive in span introduces an inconsistency: if you have d2 to be the diesis in all diatonics, you can confidently say that C# + diesis = Db in all cases, resulting in a movement up the scale, down two chromas; but that will necessarily create negative dieses in hard diatonic (there are hundreds of instances of "negative" being used (mostly commas...)). Extending to all MOS scales, the mosdiesis is small step minus chroma (2s-L).		:: This is the scale theory diesis, not the interval region. Having the diesis be always positive in span introduces an inconsistency: if you have d2 to be the diesis in all diatonics, you can confidently say that C# + diesis = Db in all cases, resulting in a movement up the scale, down two chromas; but that will necessarily create negative dieses in hard diatonic (there are hundreds of instances of "negative" being used (mostly commas...)). Extending to all MOS scales, the mosdiesis is small step minus chroma (2s-L).
	::IF instead you declare the diesis to be d2 or -d2, whatever spans positively, then C# + diesis = Db doesn't always hold, introducing an inconsistency in the diatonic: does the diesis go up or down the scale?		:: IF instead you declare the diesis to be d2 or -d2, whatever spans positively, then C# + diesis = Db doesn't always hold, introducing an inconsistency in the diatonic: does the diesis go up or down the scale?
	::Besides, having the diesis allow sign within the confines of its MOS range allows both the positive and negative dieses to have different functions and be treated distinctly; and in the case of meantone and schismic, they very often '''do''' serve different functions. --[[User:Eufalesio\|Eufalesio]] ([[User talk:Eufalesio\|talk]]) 18:58, 10 April 2026 (UTC)		:: Besides, having the diesis allow sign within the confines of its MOS range allows both the positive and negative dieses to have different functions and be treated distinctly; and in the case of meantone and schismic, they very often '''do''' serve different functions. --[[User:Eufalesio\|Eufalesio]] ([[User talk:Eufalesio\|talk]]) 18:58, 10 April 2026 (UTC)

			::: The scale theory and interval region senses are related. They refer to a positive interval in size, as it always has been. I absolutely don't think it makes sense to have C# + diesis = Db in temps such as garibaldi, where the positive interval plays an important role of bending a Pythagorean interval to classical or septimal one. We have to be braindead if we refer to this interval as the "negative diesis" (whatever that means).

			::: Whether the diesis go up or down the diatonic degrees depends on which chromatic scale we're using. I think of this as a feature rather than a bug, just like whether the chroma goes up or down the diatonic degrees depends on which "diatonic" scale (diatonic or antidiatonic) we're using.

			::: —[[User:FloraC\|FloraC]] ([[User talk:FloraC\|talk]]) 09:33, 11 April 2026 (UTC)

Eufalesio: /* "Inverse" diesis? */

2026-04-10T18:58:50Z

"Inverse" diesis?

← Older revision		Revision as of 18:58, 10 April 2026
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	: Nah, the diesis is always positive (in size, not in diatonic degrees!) cuz it essentially refers to a distance. The "negative" modifier is confusing anyway so I'd recommend against attaching it to an interval name. —[[User:FloraC\|FloraC]] ([[User talk:FloraC\|talk]]) 16:43, 10 April 2026 (UTC)		: Nah, the diesis is always positive (in size, not in diatonic degrees!) cuz it essentially refers to a distance. The "negative" modifier is confusing anyway so I'd recommend against attaching it to an interval name. —[[User:FloraC\|FloraC]] ([[User talk:FloraC\|talk]]) 16:43, 10 April 2026 (UTC)

			:: This is the scale theory diesis, not the interval region. Having the diesis be always positive in span introduces an inconsistency: if you have d2 to be the diesis in all diatonics, you can confidently say that C# + diesis = Db in all cases, resulting in a movement up the scale, down two chromas; but that will necessarily create negative dieses in hard diatonic (there are hundreds of instances of "negative" being used (mostly commas...)). Extending to all MOS scales, the mosdiesis is small step minus chroma (2s-L).
			::IF instead you declare the diesis to be d2 or -d2, whatever spans positively, then C# + diesis = Db doesn't always hold, introducing an inconsistency in the diatonic: does the diesis go up or down the scale?
			::Besides, having the diesis allow sign within the confines of its MOS range allows both the positive and negative dieses to have different functions and be treated distinctly; and in the case of meantone and schismic, they very often '''do''' serve different functions. --[[User:Eufalesio\|Eufalesio]] ([[User talk:Eufalesio\|talk]]) 18:58, 10 April 2026 (UTC)

FloraC: Re

2026-04-10T16:43:34Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 16:43, 10 April 2026
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	== "Inverse" diesis? ==		== "Inverse" diesis? ==
	The notion that the diesis can be either +12 fifths (as in pyth) or -12 fifths (as in meantone) is sure to cause some problems. In meantone the diesis is a positive interval, but in pyth it is a negative interval; I think it is much more appropiate to say that the pyth comma is a ''negative'' diesis, as it is -d2, not d2. Fix dieses to be -12 fifths and everything works out. --[[User:Eufalesio\|Eufalesio]] ([[User talk:Eufalesio\|talk]]) 08:40, 10 April 2026 (UTC)		The notion that the diesis can be either +12 fifths (as in pyth) or -12 fifths (as in meantone) is sure to cause some problems. In meantone the diesis is a positive interval, but in pyth it is a negative interval; I think it is much more appropiate to say that the pyth comma is a ''negative'' diesis, as it is -d2, not d2. Fix dieses to be -12 fifths and everything works out. --[[User:Eufalesio\|Eufalesio]] ([[User talk:Eufalesio\|talk]]) 08:40, 10 April 2026 (UTC)

			: Nah, the diesis is always positive (in size, not in diatonic degrees!) cuz it essentially refers to a distance. The "negative" modifier is confusing anyway so I'd recommend against attaching it to an interval name. —[[User:FloraC\|FloraC]] ([[User talk:FloraC\|talk]]) 16:43, 10 April 2026 (UTC)

Eufalesio at 08:40, 10 April 2026

2026-04-10T08:40:50Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 08:40, 10 April 2026
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	::: ''Enharmonic diesis'' should redirect here. The term is parallel to ''diatonic semitone'' and ''chromatic semitone''. [[User:FloraC\|FloraC]] ([[User talk:FloraC\|talk]]) 12:48, 21 April 2025 (UTC)		::: ''Enharmonic diesis'' should redirect here. The term is parallel to ''diatonic semitone'' and ''chromatic semitone''. [[User:FloraC\|FloraC]] ([[User talk:FloraC\|talk]]) 12:48, 21 April 2025 (UTC)

			== "Inverse" diesis? ==
			The notion that the diesis can be either +12 fifths (as in pyth) or -12 fifths (as in meantone) is sure to cause some problems. In meantone the diesis is a positive interval, but in pyth it is a negative interval; I think it is much more appropiate to say that the pyth comma is a ''negative'' diesis, as it is -d2, not d2. Fix dieses to be -12 fifths and everything works out. --[[User:Eufalesio\|Eufalesio]] ([[User talk:Eufalesio\|talk]]) 08:40, 10 April 2026 (UTC)

FloraC: Re

2025-04-21T12:48:19Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 12:48, 21 April 2025
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	:: [[Diesis]], [[Diesis (interval region)]], [[Diesis (scale theory)]], [[Comma and diesis]]		:: [[Diesis]], [[Diesis (interval region)]], [[Diesis (scale theory)]], [[Comma and diesis]]
	:: – [[User:Sintel\|Sintel🎏]] ([[User_talk:Sintel\|talk]]) 11:58, 21 April 2025 (UTC)		:: – [[User:Sintel\|Sintel🎏]] ([[User_talk:Sintel\|talk]]) 11:58, 21 April 2025 (UTC)

			::: ''Enharmonic diesis'' should redirect here. The term is parallel to ''diatonic semitone'' and ''chromatic semitone''. [[User:FloraC\|FloraC]] ([[User talk:FloraC\|talk]]) 12:48, 21 April 2025 (UTC)

Sintel at 11:58, 21 April 2025

2025-04-21T11:58:08Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 11:58, 21 April 2025
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	: Sorry, I don't get what you mean. You sound to me like saying it being a disambiguation page implies it should not be a disambiguation page, but that is absurd. Perhaps you mean you want this paged merged with ''Diesis (interval region)''? [[User:FloraC\|FloraC]] ([[User talk:FloraC\|talk]]) 10:58, 21 April 2025 (UTC)		: Sorry, I don't get what you mean. You sound to me like saying it being a disambiguation page implies it should not be a disambiguation page, but that is absurd. Perhaps you mean you want this paged merged with ''Diesis (interval region)''? [[User:FloraC\|FloraC]] ([[User talk:FloraC\|talk]]) 10:58, 21 April 2025 (UTC)

			:: Actually, I don't know what I want. I mostly was upset [[enharmonic diesis]] redirected here. There's just too many diesis pages now...
			:: [[Diesis]], [[Diesis (interval region)]], [[Diesis (scale theory)]], [[Comma and diesis]]
			:: – [[User:Sintel\|Sintel🎏]] ([[User_talk:Sintel\|talk]]) 11:58, 21 April 2025 (UTC)

FloraC: Re

2025-04-21T10:58:26Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 10:58, 21 April 2025
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	== Merge with diesis ==		== Merge with diesis ==

	[[Diesis]] is already a disambiguation page, so I'd prefer just having one.		[[Diesis]] is already a disambiguation page, so I'd prefer just having one.

	– [[User:Sintel\|Sintel🎏]] ([[User_talk:Sintel\|talk]]) 10:32, 21 April 2025 (UTC)		– [[User:Sintel\|Sintel🎏]] ([[User_talk:Sintel\|talk]]) 10:32, 21 April 2025 (UTC)

			: Sorry, I don't get what you mean. You sound to me like saying it being a disambiguation page implies it should not be a disambiguation page, but that is absurd. Perhaps you mean you want this paged merged with ''Diesis (interval region)''? [[User:FloraC\|FloraC]] ([[User talk:FloraC\|talk]]) 10:58, 21 April 2025 (UTC)

Sintel: Created page with "== Merge with diesis == Diesis is already a disambiguation page, so I'd prefer just having one. ~~~~"

2025-04-21T10:32:59Z

Created page with "== Merge with diesis == Diesis is already a disambiguation page, so I'd prefer just having one. ~~~~"

New page

== Merge with diesis ==

[[Diesis]] is already a disambiguation page, so I'd prefer just having one.

– [[User:Sintel|Sintel🎏]] ([[User_talk:Sintel|talk]]) 10:32, 21 April 2025 (UTC)