Talk:Carlos Alpha - Revision history

Lucius Chiaraviglio: /* Merge with valentine */ Valentine extended family?

2025-04-26T20:33:55Z

Merge with valentine: Valentine extended family?

← Older revision		Revision as of 20:33, 26 April 2025
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	:::: Carlos expects us to "handle the octaving later," bringing this to be the same as Valentine. (Carlos is just describing the generator chain without periods above.) (It is true, though, that Carlos Alpha is a special case of Valentine, or Valentine with additional constraints, specifically the tunings of the generators and the expectation that copies of an an equal-step tuning rather than, for example, MOS scales are the intended approach--so maybe the pages should be kept seperate anyway.) --[[User:Hkm\|hkm]] ([[User talk:Hkm\|talk]]) 18:57, 26 April 2025 (UTC)		:::: Carlos expects us to "handle the octaving later," bringing this to be the same as Valentine. (Carlos is just describing the generator chain without periods above.) (It is true, though, that Carlos Alpha is a special case of Valentine, or Valentine with additional constraints, specifically the tunings of the generators and the expectation that copies of an an equal-step tuning rather than, for example, MOS scales are the intended approach--so maybe the pages should be kept seperate anyway.) --[[User:Hkm\|hkm]] ([[User talk:Hkm\|talk]]) 18:57, 26 April 2025 (UTC)

			::::: From my understanding of the description of Carlos Alpha, since it doesn't specify a period and Valentine does, they are not the same. Now what might make sense would be to have an article (Valentine extended family?) that links them together, and keep separate sub-pages for Carlos Alpha, Valentine proper, etc. [[User:Lucius Chiaraviglio\|Lucius Chiaraviglio]] ([[User talk:Lucius Chiaraviglio\|talk]]) 20:33, 26 April 2025 (UTC)

Hkm: /* Merge with valentine */

2025-04-26T18:57:48Z

Merge with valentine

← Older revision		Revision as of 18:57, 26 April 2025
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	::: Assuming that I found the right page (https://www.wendycarlos.com/resources/pitch.html), this also says "If you try to play through a one octave scale of Alpha, you'd find there are 4 steps to the minor third, 5 steps to the major third, and 9 steps to the perfect (no kidding) fifth, but, or course, no octave. The closest 'attempt' at this is an awful 1170 cent version, which sounds awfully flat. Yet the next step to 1248 cents is even further away, and hopelessly sharp, except for timbres like those in a gamelan ensemble." So you might get a match with an octave eventually, but not in just 1 octave, whereas Valentine expects to repeat notes at every single octave. That small step from around 1170{{c}} to 1200{{c}} (assuming the mode in which it is the last step in the scale) is the small step of Valentine 15L 1s. So the Valentine and Carlos Alpha pages might need to have links to each other, but shouldn't be merged. [[User:Lucius Chiaraviglio\|Lucius Chiaraviglio]] ([[User talk:Lucius Chiaraviglio\|talk]]) 21:32, 12 April 2025 (UTC)		::: Assuming that I found the right page (https://www.wendycarlos.com/resources/pitch.html), this also says "If you try to play through a one octave scale of Alpha, you'd find there are 4 steps to the minor third, 5 steps to the major third, and 9 steps to the perfect (no kidding) fifth, but, or course, no octave. The closest 'attempt' at this is an awful 1170 cent version, which sounds awfully flat. Yet the next step to 1248 cents is even further away, and hopelessly sharp, except for timbres like those in a gamelan ensemble." So you might get a match with an octave eventually, but not in just 1 octave, whereas Valentine expects to repeat notes at every single octave. That small step from around 1170{{c}} to 1200{{c}} (assuming the mode in which it is the last step in the scale) is the small step of Valentine 15L 1s. So the Valentine and Carlos Alpha pages might need to have links to each other, but shouldn't be merged. [[User:Lucius Chiaraviglio\|Lucius Chiaraviglio]] ([[User talk:Lucius Chiaraviglio\|talk]]) 21:32, 12 April 2025 (UTC)

			:::: Carlos expects us to "handle the octaving later," bringing this to be the same as Valentine. (Carlos is just describing the generator chain without periods above.) (It is true, though, that Carlos Alpha is a special case of Valentine, or Valentine with additional constraints, specifically the tunings of the generators and the expectation that copies of an an equal-step tuning rather than, for example, MOS scales are the intended approach--so maybe the pages should be kept seperate anyway.) --[[User:Hkm\|hkm]] ([[User talk:Hkm\|talk]]) 18:57, 26 April 2025 (UTC)

Lucius Chiaraviglio: /* Merge with valentine */ Quote from Carlos web page

2025-04-12T21:32:09Z

Merge with valentine: Quote from Carlos web page

← Older revision		Revision as of 21:32, 12 April 2025
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	:: Carlos Alpha is supposed to be used with repeated copies in multiple octaves (which is how Carlos uses it in Beauty in the Beast afaik). —[[User:Hkm\|hkm]] ([[User talk:Hkm\|talk]]) 20:18, 12 April 2025 (UTC)		:: Carlos Alpha is supposed to be used with repeated copies in multiple octaves (which is how Carlos uses it in Beauty in the Beast afaik). —[[User:Hkm\|hkm]] ([[User talk:Hkm\|talk]]) 20:18, 12 April 2025 (UTC)
	:: From Carlos’ page: “Since each of the redundant interval pairs is symmetric with respect to the octave, the result is a kind of "over-representation" of this interval. But the octave is a ratio most common to the "strategies" of many instruments, including newer synthesizer architectures. Look at their 16', 8', 4' octaving borrowed from the pipe organ. Most timbres/instrument voices include a similar designation of transpositions up or down by octaves. We have octave possibilities all over the place. So why not, as an experiment, investigate divisions which are not integer based, but allow fractional parts? That will lose all octave symmetry, but if we handle the octaving later, we might be able to find some really interesting equal-step specimens.” —[[User:Hkm\|hkm]] ([[User talk:Hkm\|talk]]) 20:20, 12 April 2025 (UTC)		:: From Carlos’ page: “Since each of the redundant interval pairs is symmetric with respect to the octave, the result is a kind of "over-representation" of this interval. But the octave is a ratio most common to the "strategies" of many instruments, including newer synthesizer architectures. Look at their 16', 8', 4' octaving borrowed from the pipe organ. Most timbres/instrument voices include a similar designation of transpositions up or down by octaves. We have octave possibilities all over the place. So why not, as an experiment, investigate divisions which are not integer based, but allow fractional parts? That will lose all octave symmetry, but if we handle the octaving later, we might be able to find some really interesting equal-step specimens.” —[[User:Hkm\|hkm]] ([[User talk:Hkm\|talk]]) 20:20, 12 April 2025 (UTC)

			::: Assuming that I found the right page (https://www.wendycarlos.com/resources/pitch.html), this also says "If you try to play through a one octave scale of Alpha, you'd find there are 4 steps to the minor third, 5 steps to the major third, and 9 steps to the perfect (no kidding) fifth, but, or course, no octave. The closest 'attempt' at this is an awful 1170 cent version, which sounds awfully flat. Yet the next step to 1248 cents is even further away, and hopelessly sharp, except for timbres like those in a gamelan ensemble." So you might get a match with an octave eventually, but not in just 1 octave, whereas Valentine expects to repeat notes at every single octave. That small step from around 1170{{c}} to 1200{{c}} (assuming the mode in which it is the last step in the scale) is the small step of Valentine 15L 1s. So the Valentine and Carlos Alpha pages might need to have links to each other, but shouldn't be merged. [[User:Lucius Chiaraviglio\|Lucius Chiaraviglio]] ([[User talk:Lucius Chiaraviglio\|talk]]) 21:32, 12 April 2025 (UTC)

Hkm: /* Merge with valentine */

2025-04-12T20:20:41Z

Merge with valentine

← Older revision		Revision as of 20:20, 12 April 2025
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	:: Carlos Alpha is supposed to be used with repeated copies in multiple octaves (which is how Carlos uses it in Beauty in the Beast afaik). —[[User:Hkm\|hkm]] ([[User talk:Hkm\|talk]]) 20:18, 12 April 2025 (UTC)		:: Carlos Alpha is supposed to be used with repeated copies in multiple octaves (which is how Carlos uses it in Beauty in the Beast afaik). —[[User:Hkm\|hkm]] ([[User talk:Hkm\|talk]]) 20:18, 12 April 2025 (UTC)
			:: From Carlos’ page: “Since each of the redundant interval pairs is symmetric with respect to the octave, the result is a kind of "over-representation" of this interval. But the octave is a ratio most common to the "strategies" of many instruments, including newer synthesizer architectures. Look at their 16', 8', 4' octaving borrowed from the pipe organ. Most timbres/instrument voices include a similar designation of transpositions up or down by octaves. We have octave possibilities all over the place. So why not, as an experiment, investigate divisions which are not integer based, but allow fractional parts? That will lose all octave symmetry, but if we handle the octaving later, we might be able to find some really interesting equal-step specimens.” —[[User:Hkm\|hkm]] ([[User talk:Hkm\|talk]]) 20:20, 12 April 2025 (UTC)

Hkm: /* Merge with valentine */

2025-04-12T20:18:48Z

Merge with valentine

← Older revision		Revision as of 20:18, 12 April 2025
Line 23:		Line 23:
	== Merge with valentine ==		== Merge with valentine ==

	Should this be merged with [[Valentine]], which is the same system? —-[[User:Hkm\|hkm]] ([[User talk:Hkm\|talk]]) 20:18, 12 April 2025 (UTC)		Should this be merged with [[Valentine]], which is the same system? —[[User:Hkm\|hkm]] ([[User talk:Hkm\|talk]]) 20:18, 12 April 2025 (UTC)

	: See above — looks like it is different enough that it should be counted as related but not the same, even though apparently some composers use 9edf to approximate it. [[User:Lucius Chiaraviglio\|Lucius Chiaraviglio]] ([[User talk:Lucius Chiaraviglio\|talk]]) 15:25, 11 April 2025 (UTC)		: See above — looks like it is different enough that it should be counted as related but not the same, even though apparently some composers use 9edf to approximate it. [[User:Lucius Chiaraviglio\|Lucius Chiaraviglio]] ([[User talk:Lucius Chiaraviglio\|talk]]) 15:25, 11 April 2025 (UTC)
	: More specifically, Valentine has 2/1 as the equave, whereas 9edf has 3/2 as the equave, and Carlos Alpha does not use either of these, although it gets close to 9edf. [[User:Lucius Chiaraviglio\|Lucius Chiaraviglio]] ([[User talk:Lucius Chiaraviglio\|talk]]) 00:06, 12 April 2025 (UTC)		: More specifically, Valentine has 2/1 as the equave, whereas 9edf has 3/2 as the equave, and Carlos Alpha does not use either of these, although it gets close to 9edf. [[User:Lucius Chiaraviglio\|Lucius Chiaraviglio]] ([[User talk:Lucius Chiaraviglio\|talk]]) 00:06, 12 April 2025 (UTC)

	:: Carlos Alpha is supposed to be used with repeated copies in multiple octaves (which is how Carlos uses it in Beauty in the Beast afaik). —-[[User:Hkm\|hkm]] ([[User talk:Hkm\|talk]]) 20:18, 12 April 2025 (UTC)		:: Carlos Alpha is supposed to be used with repeated copies in multiple octaves (which is how Carlos uses it in Beauty in the Beast afaik). —[[User:Hkm\|hkm]] ([[User talk:Hkm\|talk]]) 20:18, 12 April 2025 (UTC)

Hkm: /* Merge with valentine */

2025-04-12T20:18:34Z

Merge with valentine

← Older revision		Revision as of 20:18, 12 April 2025
Line 23:		Line 23:
	== Merge with valentine ==		== Merge with valentine ==

	Should this be merged with [[Valentine]], which is the same system?		Should this be merged with [[Valentine]], which is the same system? —-[[User:Hkm\|hkm]] ([[User talk:Hkm\|talk]]) 20:18, 12 April 2025 (UTC)

	: See above — looks like it is different enough that it should be counted as related but not the same, even though apparently some composers use 9edf to approximate it. [[User:Lucius Chiaraviglio\|Lucius Chiaraviglio]] ([[User talk:Lucius Chiaraviglio\|talk]]) 15:25, 11 April 2025 (UTC)		: See above — looks like it is different enough that it should be counted as related but not the same, even though apparently some composers use 9edf to approximate it. [[User:Lucius Chiaraviglio\|Lucius Chiaraviglio]] ([[User talk:Lucius Chiaraviglio\|talk]]) 15:25, 11 April 2025 (UTC)
	: More specifically, Valentine has 2/1 as the equave, whereas 9edf has 3/2 as the equave, and Carlos Alpha does not use either of these, although it gets close to 9edf. [[User:Lucius Chiaraviglio\|Lucius Chiaraviglio]] ([[User talk:Lucius Chiaraviglio\|talk]]) 00:06, 12 April 2025 (UTC)		: More specifically, Valentine has 2/1 as the equave, whereas 9edf has 3/2 as the equave, and Carlos Alpha does not use either of these, although it gets close to 9edf. [[User:Lucius Chiaraviglio\|Lucius Chiaraviglio]] ([[User talk:Lucius Chiaraviglio\|talk]]) 00:06, 12 April 2025 (UTC)

	:: Carlos Alpha is supposed to be used with repeated copies in multiple octaves (which is how Carlos uses it in Beauty in the Beast afaik).		:: Carlos Alpha is supposed to be used with repeated copies in multiple octaves (which is how Carlos uses it in Beauty in the Beast afaik). —-[[User:Hkm\|hkm]] ([[User talk:Hkm\|talk]]) 20:18, 12 April 2025 (UTC)

Hkm: /* Merge with valentine */

2025-04-12T20:18:15Z

Merge with valentine

← Older revision		Revision as of 20:18, 12 April 2025
Line 27:		Line 27:
	: See above — looks like it is different enough that it should be counted as related but not the same, even though apparently some composers use 9edf to approximate it. [[User:Lucius Chiaraviglio\|Lucius Chiaraviglio]] ([[User talk:Lucius Chiaraviglio\|talk]]) 15:25, 11 April 2025 (UTC)		: See above — looks like it is different enough that it should be counted as related but not the same, even though apparently some composers use 9edf to approximate it. [[User:Lucius Chiaraviglio\|Lucius Chiaraviglio]] ([[User talk:Lucius Chiaraviglio\|talk]]) 15:25, 11 April 2025 (UTC)
	: More specifically, Valentine has 2/1 as the equave, whereas 9edf has 3/2 as the equave, and Carlos Alpha does not use either of these, although it gets close to 9edf. [[User:Lucius Chiaraviglio\|Lucius Chiaraviglio]] ([[User talk:Lucius Chiaraviglio\|talk]]) 00:06, 12 April 2025 (UTC)		: More specifically, Valentine has 2/1 as the equave, whereas 9edf has 3/2 as the equave, and Carlos Alpha does not use either of these, although it gets close to 9edf. [[User:Lucius Chiaraviglio\|Lucius Chiaraviglio]] ([[User talk:Lucius Chiaraviglio\|talk]]) 00:06, 12 April 2025 (UTC)

			:: Carlos Alpha is supposed to be used with repeated copies in multiple octaves (which is how Carlos uses it in Beauty in the Beast afaik).

Lucius Chiaraviglio: /* Merge with valentine */ More specific explanation

2025-04-12T00:06:27Z

Merge with valentine: More specific explanation

← Older revision		Revision as of 00:06, 12 April 2025
Line 26:		Line 26:

	: See above — looks like it is different enough that it should be counted as related but not the same, even though apparently some composers use 9edf to approximate it. [[User:Lucius Chiaraviglio\|Lucius Chiaraviglio]] ([[User talk:Lucius Chiaraviglio\|talk]]) 15:25, 11 April 2025 (UTC)		: See above — looks like it is different enough that it should be counted as related but not the same, even though apparently some composers use 9edf to approximate it. [[User:Lucius Chiaraviglio\|Lucius Chiaraviglio]] ([[User talk:Lucius Chiaraviglio\|talk]]) 15:25, 11 April 2025 (UTC)
			: More specifically, Valentine has 2/1 as the equave, whereas 9edf has 3/2 as the equave, and Carlos Alpha does not use either of these, although it gets close to 9edf. [[User:Lucius Chiaraviglio\|Lucius Chiaraviglio]] ([[User talk:Lucius Chiaraviglio\|talk]]) 00:06, 12 April 2025 (UTC)

Lucius Chiaraviglio: /* Merge with valentine */ Fix busted HTML symbol

2025-04-11T15:26:06Z

Merge with valentine: Fix busted HTML symbol

← Older revision		Revision as of 15:26, 11 April 2025
Line 25:		Line 25:
	Should this be merged with [[Valentine]], which is the same system?		Should this be merged with [[Valentine]], which is the same system?

	: See above &~~emdash~~ looks like it is different enough that it should be counted as related but not the same, even though apparently some composers use 9edf to approximate it. [[User:Lucius Chiaraviglio\|Lucius Chiaraviglio]] ([[User talk:Lucius Chiaraviglio\|talk]]) 15:25, 11 April 2025 (UTC)		: See above — looks like it is different enough that it should be counted as related but not the same, even though apparently some composers use 9edf to approximate it. [[User:Lucius Chiaraviglio\|Lucius Chiaraviglio]] ([[User talk:Lucius Chiaraviglio\|talk]]) 15:25, 11 April 2025 (UTC)

Lucius Chiaraviglio: /* Merge with valentine */ Probably not?

2025-04-11T15:25:22Z

Merge with valentine: Probably not?

← Older revision		Revision as of 15:25, 11 April 2025
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	Should this be merged with [[Valentine]], which is the same system?		Should this be merged with [[Valentine]], which is the same system?

			: See above &emdash looks like it is different enough that it should be counted as related but not the same, even though apparently some composers use 9edf to approximate it. [[User:Lucius Chiaraviglio\|Lucius Chiaraviglio]] ([[User talk:Lucius Chiaraviglio\|talk]]) 15:25, 11 April 2025 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 21:32, 12 April 2025
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	:: Carlos Alpha is supposed to be used with repeated copies in multiple octaves (which is how Carlos uses it in Beauty in the Beast afaik). —[[User:Hkm\|hkm]] ([[User talk:Hkm\|talk]]) 20:18, 12 April 2025 (UTC)		:: Carlos Alpha is supposed to be used with repeated copies in multiple octaves (which is how Carlos uses it in Beauty in the Beast afaik). —[[User:Hkm\|hkm]] ([[User talk:Hkm\|talk]]) 20:18, 12 April 2025 (UTC)
	:: From Carlos’ page: “Since each of the redundant interval pairs is symmetric with respect to the octave, the result is a kind of "over-representation" of this interval. But the octave is a ratio most common to the "strategies" of many instruments, including newer synthesizer architectures. Look at their 16', 8', 4' octaving borrowed from the pipe organ. Most timbres/instrument voices include a similar designation of transpositions up or down by octaves. We have octave possibilities all over the place. So why not, as an experiment, investigate divisions which are not integer based, but allow fractional parts? That will lose all octave symmetry, but if we handle the octaving later, we might be able to find some really interesting equal-step specimens.” —[[User:Hkm\|hkm]] ([[User talk:Hkm\|talk]]) 20:20, 12 April 2025 (UTC)		:: From Carlos’ page: “Since each of the redundant interval pairs is symmetric with respect to the octave, the result is a kind of "over-representation" of this interval. But the octave is a ratio most common to the "strategies" of many instruments, including newer synthesizer architectures. Look at their 16', 8', 4' octaving borrowed from the pipe organ. Most timbres/instrument voices include a similar designation of transpositions up or down by octaves. We have octave possibilities all over the place. So why not, as an experiment, investigate divisions which are not integer based, but allow fractional parts? That will lose all octave symmetry, but if we handle the octaving later, we might be able to find some really interesting equal-step specimens.” —[[User:Hkm\|hkm]] ([[User talk:Hkm\|talk]]) 20:20, 12 April 2025 (UTC)

			::: Assuming that I found the right page (https://www.wendycarlos.com/resources/pitch.html), this also says "If you try to play through a one octave scale of Alpha, you'd find there are 4 steps to the minor third, 5 steps to the major third, and 9 steps to the perfect (no kidding) fifth, but, or course, no octave. The closest 'attempt' at this is an awful 1170 cent version, which sounds awfully flat. Yet the next step to 1248 cents is even further away, and hopelessly sharp, except for timbres like those in a gamelan ensemble." So you might get a match with an octave eventually, but not in just 1 octave, whereas Valentine expects to repeat notes at every single octave. That small step from around 1170{{c}} to 1200{{c}} (assuming the mode in which it is the last step in the scale) is the small step of Valentine 15L 1s. So the Valentine and Carlos Alpha pages might need to have links to each other, but shouldn't be merged. [[User:Lucius Chiaraviglio\|Lucius Chiaraviglio]] ([[User talk:Lucius Chiaraviglio\|talk]]) 21:32, 12 April 2025 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 20:18, 12 April 2025
Line 23:		Line 23:
	== Merge with valentine ==		== Merge with valentine ==

	Should this be merged with [[Valentine]], which is the same system? —-[[User:Hkm\|hkm]] ([[User talk:Hkm\|talk]]) 20:18, 12 April 2025 (UTC)		Should this be merged with [[Valentine]], which is the same system? —[[User:Hkm\|hkm]] ([[User talk:Hkm\|talk]]) 20:18, 12 April 2025 (UTC)

	: See above — looks like it is different enough that it should be counted as related but not the same, even though apparently some composers use 9edf to approximate it. [[User:Lucius Chiaraviglio\|Lucius Chiaraviglio]] ([[User talk:Lucius Chiaraviglio\|talk]]) 15:25, 11 April 2025 (UTC)		: See above — looks like it is different enough that it should be counted as related but not the same, even though apparently some composers use 9edf to approximate it. [[User:Lucius Chiaraviglio\|Lucius Chiaraviglio]] ([[User talk:Lucius Chiaraviglio\|talk]]) 15:25, 11 April 2025 (UTC)
	: More specifically, Valentine has 2/1 as the equave, whereas 9edf has 3/2 as the equave, and Carlos Alpha does not use either of these, although it gets close to 9edf. [[User:Lucius Chiaraviglio\|Lucius Chiaraviglio]] ([[User talk:Lucius Chiaraviglio\|talk]]) 00:06, 12 April 2025 (UTC)		: More specifically, Valentine has 2/1 as the equave, whereas 9edf has 3/2 as the equave, and Carlos Alpha does not use either of these, although it gets close to 9edf. [[User:Lucius Chiaraviglio\|Lucius Chiaraviglio]] ([[User talk:Lucius Chiaraviglio\|talk]]) 00:06, 12 April 2025 (UTC)

	:: Carlos Alpha is supposed to be used with repeated copies in multiple octaves (which is how Carlos uses it in Beauty in the Beast afaik). —-[[User:Hkm\|hkm]] ([[User talk:Hkm\|talk]]) 20:18, 12 April 2025 (UTC)		:: Carlos Alpha is supposed to be used with repeated copies in multiple octaves (which is how Carlos uses it in Beauty in the Beast afaik). —[[User:Hkm\|hkm]] ([[User talk:Hkm\|talk]]) 20:18, 12 April 2025 (UTC)