Talk:136/135 - Revision history

BudjarnLambeth: Expressed support for proposed rename

2024-03-07T23:40:23Z

Expressed support for proposed rename

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	== Rename to "fiventeenisma"? ==		== Rename to "fiventeenisma"? ==
	This comma generates an essentially-tempered [[pentic]] of 30:34:40:45:51:60 through [[17/15]] = [[9/8]] and through the minor third being mapped to [[20/17]] (and thus the major third to [[51/40]]). It is well-tuned in [[17edo]]. This establishes its clear relation to numbers five and seventeen specifically, hence five+seventeen=fiventeen. (If the pentad implying a relation to five isn't convincing enough, keep in mind it's a [[supersoft]] tuning of [[pentic]] so it's closer to 5 equally spaced notes than usual. (Notice that of the teems, only seventeen has a v and of the naturals < 10 only five and seven have a v. The very subtle/indirect allusion to 7 is possibly a reference to [[diatonic]].) --[[User:Godtone\|Godtone]] ([[User talk:Godtone\|talk]]) 22:04, 7 March 2024 (UTC)		This comma generates an essentially-tempered [[pentic]] of 30:34:40:45:51:60 through [[17/15]] = [[9/8]] and through the minor third being mapped to [[20/17]] (and thus the major third to [[51/40]]). It is well-tuned in [[17edo]]. This establishes its clear relation to numbers five and seventeen specifically, hence five+seventeen=fiventeen. (If the pentad implying a relation to five isn't convincing enough, keep in mind it's a [[supersoft]] tuning of [[pentic]] so it's closer to 5 equally spaced notes than usual. (Notice that of the teems, only seventeen has a v and of the naturals < 10 only five and seven have a v. The very subtle/indirect allusion to 7 is possibly a reference to [[diatonic]].) --[[User:Godtone\|Godtone]] ([[User talk:Godtone\|talk]]) 22:04, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

			: I like the name fiventeenisma, I would be in favour of this. --[[User:BudjarnLambeth\|BudjarnLambeth]] ([[User talk:BudjarnLambeth\|talk]]) 23:40, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

Godtone: rename to fiventeenisma as per unacceptability of the implied temperament name "diatonic"

2024-03-07T22:04:35Z

rename to fiventeenisma as per unacceptability of the implied temperament name "diatonic"

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	: Small addendum: To give examples of "diatonic" (as a rank-3 2.3.5.17 subgroup temperament) being problematic, I want to draw attention to the emergent naming of lower-rank temperaments based on combinations of higher-rank temperaments that they combine; in such a discussion it may be confusing whether it is meant merely that the user finds the temperaments to have a "diatonic quality" or whether they support "diatonic"· An example is [[80edo]] may be described as "[[parapyth]] [[octopus]]"/"[[octopus]] [[parapyth]]" (whichever flows better, although it might be nice to have some way of standardising the order). --[[User:Godtone\|Godtone]] ([[User talk:Godtone\|talk]]) 22:53, 25 January 2024 (UTC)		: Small addendum: To give examples of "diatonic" (as a rank-3 2.3.5.17 subgroup temperament) being problematic, I want to draw attention to the emergent naming of lower-rank temperaments based on combinations of higher-rank temperaments that they combine; in such a discussion it may be confusing whether it is meant merely that the user finds the temperaments to have a "diatonic quality" or whether they support "diatonic"· An example is [[80edo]] may be described as "[[parapyth]] [[octopus]]"/"[[octopus]] [[parapyth]]" (whichever flows better, although it might be nice to have some way of standardising the order). --[[User:Godtone\|Godtone]] ([[User talk:Godtone\|talk]]) 22:53, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

			== Rename to "fiventeenisma"? ==
			This comma generates an essentially-tempered [[pentic]] of 30:34:40:45:51:60 through [[17/15]] = [[9/8]] and through the minor third being mapped to [[20/17]] (and thus the major third to [[51/40]]). It is well-tuned in [[17edo]]. This establishes its clear relation to numbers five and seventeen specifically, hence five+seventeen=fiventeen. (If the pentad implying a relation to five isn't convincing enough, keep in mind it's a [[supersoft]] tuning of [[pentic]] so it's closer to 5 equally spaced notes than usual. (Notice that of the teems, only seventeen has a v and of the naturals < 10 only five and seven have a v. The very subtle/indirect allusion to 7 is possibly a reference to [[diatonic]].) --[[User:Godtone\|Godtone]] ([[User talk:Godtone\|talk]]) 22:04, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

Godtone at 22:53, 25 January 2024

2024-01-25T22:53:40Z

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	Kind regards, --[[User:Godtone\|Godtone]] ([[User talk:Godtone\|talk]]) 22:45, 25 January 2024 (UTC)		Kind regards, --[[User:Godtone\|Godtone]] ([[User talk:Godtone\|talk]]) 22:45, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

	: Small addendum: To give examples of "diatonic" (as a rank-3 2.3.5.17 subgroup temperament) being problematic, I want to draw attention to the emergent naming of lower-rank temperaments based on combinations of higher-rank temperaments that they combine; in such a discussion it may be confusing whether it is meant merely that the user finds the temperaments to have a "diatonic quality" or whether they support "diatonic"· --[[User:Godtone\|Godtone]] ([[User talk:Godtone\|talk]]) 22:50, 25 January 2024 (UTC)		: Small addendum: To give examples of "diatonic" (as a rank-3 2.3.5.17 subgroup temperament) being problematic, I want to draw attention to the emergent naming of lower-rank temperaments based on combinations of higher-rank temperaments that they combine; in such a discussion it may be confusing whether it is meant merely that the user finds the temperaments to have a "diatonic quality" or whether they support "diatonic"· An example is [[80edo]] may be described as "[[parapyth]] [[octopus]]"/"[[octopus]] [[parapyth]]" (whichever flows better, although it might be nice to have some way of standardising the order). --[[User:Godtone\|Godtone]] ([[User talk:Godtone\|talk]]) 22:53, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

Godtone: /* Slight/mild rename proposal */

2024-01-25T22:50:25Z

Slight/mild rename proposal

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	Kind regards, --[[User:Godtone\|Godtone]] ([[User talk:Godtone\|talk]]) 22:45, 25 January 2024 (UTC)		Kind regards, --[[User:Godtone\|Godtone]] ([[User talk:Godtone\|talk]]) 22:45, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

			: Small addendum: To give examples of "diatonic" (as a rank-3 2.3.5.17 subgroup temperament) being problematic, I want to draw attention to the emergent naming of lower-rank temperaments based on combinations of higher-rank temperaments that they combine; in such a discussion it may be confusing whether it is meant merely that the user finds the temperaments to have a "diatonic quality" or whether they support "diatonic"· --[[User:Godtone\|Godtone]] ([[User talk:Godtone\|talk]]) 22:50, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

Godtone at 22:45, 25 January 2024

2024-01-25T22:45:50Z

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	: I asked them and they insist on anonymity. I guess we'll stick to ''diatonisma'' for now. --[[User:Frostburn\|Frostburn]] ([[User talk:Frostburn\|talk]]) 17:24, 28 December 2023 (UTC)		: I asked them and they insist on anonymity. I guess we'll stick to ''diatonisma'' for now. --[[User:Frostburn\|Frostburn]] ([[User talk:Frostburn\|talk]]) 17:24, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

			== Slight/mild rename proposal ==
			There is one strong reason to rename this comma, which is the implied subgroup temperament would be called "diatonic", which seems confusing. Now, don't get me wrong, I actually think that bar this issue, the name is fine enough. There is some debate as to whether ([[9/8]])/([[19/17]]) = [[153/152]] could be confused, with a name like "diatonisma", however I think a more careful analysis favours ([[17/15]])/([[9/8]]) uniquely because it only requires adding one prime generator, [[17/16]], to the subgroup, as compared to [[19/17]], plus 153/152 is already named anyways.

			It being rank 3 is not really an issue IMO as I think it is fair to call simple [[5-limit]] harmonies "diatonic" in the broad sense, and [[17/16]] is given a nice mapping within the [[5-limit]] as a result. Furthermore, the most natural extension of {[[256/255\|S16]], [[289/288\|S17]]} ([[Srutal archagall]]), if you insist on a rank 2 connection for the term "diatonic" and the resulting temp makes [[17/16]] and [[3/2]] the generator (depending on whether you octave-reduce or period-reduce), which I'd say is about as diatonic as it gets, although note I am used to thinking of 1\2 = 600{{cent}} as diatonic due to [[12edo]] bias. There are beautiful and very diatonic-sounding 12:15:17 chords in the associated temperament for which one may optionally temper [[17/12]] to be equal to 1\2.

			I wonder if a slight/mild rename would suffice? Otherwise we have too many things being connected to the term "diatonic" where it may start causing ambiguity and confusion and having to clarify which sense we mean seems undesirable. I think the spirit of the name is excellent, but others have also expressed concern about the name as is and the ambiguity of "diatonic" referring to a rank 3 2.3.5.17 temperament (although fairly elegant/convincing in its motivation IMO) is good motivation I think as it constitutes a strong reason as per the [[temperament and comma naming conventions]], which I quote below:

			: The name should not cause potential confusion/ambiguity with other names. Note that an important exception to this rule is that closely related temperaments may have highly similar names; this is not uncommon.

			Kind regards, --[[User:Godtone\|Godtone]] ([[User talk:Godtone\|talk]]) 22:45, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

Frostburn at 17:24, 28 December 2023

2023-12-28T17:24:15Z

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	: I think superpyth implies a mapping of 17 due to its whole tone fitting ~17/15 very well, but calling it ''diatonisma'' for that reason is indeed quite a stretch. That said, we'd like to hear the work you mentioned. If it's not meant to be heard, the author not meant to be known and credited, then imo it's not a good source for the wiki. [[User:FloraC\|FloraC]] ([[User talk:FloraC\|talk]]) 14:46, 28 December 2023 (UTC)		: I think superpyth implies a mapping of 17 due to its whole tone fitting ~17/15 very well, but calling it ''diatonisma'' for that reason is indeed quite a stretch. That said, we'd like to hear the work you mentioned. If it's not meant to be heard, the author not meant to be known and credited, then imo it's not a good source for the wiki. [[User:FloraC\|FloraC]] ([[User talk:FloraC\|talk]]) 14:46, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

			: I asked them and they insist on anonymity. I guess we'll stick to ''diatonisma'' for now. --[[User:Frostburn\|Frostburn]] ([[User talk:Frostburn\|talk]]) 17:24, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

FloraC: re

2023-12-28T14:46:09Z

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	I was recently made aware that there is just intonation musician who has used this comma in composition prior to the year 2023 but wishes to remain anonymous. They call it the "quiet comma" and I suggest renaming 136/135 based on precedence.		I was recently made aware that there is just intonation musician who has used this comma in composition prior to the year 2023 but wishes to remain anonymous. They call it the "quiet comma" and I suggest renaming 136/135 based on precedence.
	--[[User:Frostburn\|Frostburn]] ([[User talk:Frostburn\|talk]]) 14:13, 28 December 2023 (UTC)		--[[User:Frostburn\|Frostburn]] ([[User talk:Frostburn\|talk]]) 14:13, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

			: I think superpyth implies a mapping of 17 due to its whole tone fitting ~17/15 very well, but calling it ''diatonisma'' for that reason is indeed quite a stretch. That said, we'd like to hear the work you mentioned. If it's not meant to be heard, the author not meant to be known and credited, then imo it's not a good source for the wiki. [[User:FloraC\|FloraC]] ([[User talk:FloraC\|talk]]) 14:46, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

Frostburn: Suggest renaming 136/135 to "quiet comma".

2023-12-28T14:13:44Z

Suggest renaming 136/135 to "quiet comma".

New page

I don't find the name ''diatonisma'' relevant to to this comma. There's nothing in diatonic, Pythagorean tuning or even superpyth that clearly implies the prime 17.

I was recently made aware that there is just intonation musician who has used this comma in composition prior to the year 2023 but wishes to remain anonymous. They call it the "quiet comma" and I suggest renaming 136/135 based on precedence.
--[[User:Frostburn|Frostburn]] ([[User talk:Frostburn|talk]]) 14:13, 28 December 2023 (UTC)