Support - Revision history

Lériendil at 21:50, 12 June 2025

2025-06-12T21:50:58Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 21:50, 12 June 2025
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	A [[regular temperament]] is '''supported''' by an [[equal temperament]] that makes all of its [[comma]]s [[vanish]].<ref>The original definition of support in this RTT sense was given by [[Gene Ward Smith]] in [https://yahootuninggroupsultimatebackup.github.io/tuning-math/topicId_13712#13967], "Suppose T is a wedgie, and v is an equal temperament val. Then v supports T if and only if T^v = 0."</ref> The equal temperament thus '''supports''' this temperament, or equivalently stated, the equal temperament ''is a temperament of'' this temperament, in the same sense as a temperament is a temperament of [[just intonation]].		A [[regular temperament]] is '''supported''' by an [[equal temperament]] that makes all of its [[comma]]s [[vanish]].<ref>The original definition of support in this RTT sense was given by [[Gene Ward Smith]] in [https://yahootuninggroupsultimatebackup.github.io/tuning-math/topicId_13712#13967], "Suppose T is a wedgie, and v is an equal temperament val. Then v supports T if and only if T^v = 0."</ref> The equal temperament thus '''supports''' this temperament, or equivalently stated, the equal temperament ''is a temperament of'' this temperament, in the same sense as that any temperament is a temperament of [[just intonation]].

	For example, [[22edo\|22-ET]] supports [[pajara]], because pajara makes [[225/224]] and [[64/63]] vanish, and so does 22-ET. The supporting temperament will make at least one additional comma vanish; in this example, 22-ET makes [[245/243]] vanish.		For example, [[22edo\|22-ET]] supports [[pajara]], because pajara makes [[225/224]] and [[64/63]] vanish, and so does 22-ET. The supporting temperament will make at least one additional comma vanish; in this example, 22-ET makes [[245/243]] vanish.

ArrowHead294 at 12:25, 31 March 2025

2025-03-31T12:25:50Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 12:25, 31 March 2025
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	== Generalization ==		== Generalization ==

	An equal temperament is the same thing as a rank-1 temperament, and the initial definition given here where the supporting temperament is rank-1 is the most common use case as of 2022. However, in general, we can say that any lower-[[nullity]] (higher-[[rank]]) temperament is supported by a higher-nullity (lower-rank) temperament if the higher-nullity temperament also makes all the commas that the lower-nullity temperament vanishes vanish.<ref>As an edge case, JI is conceptualized as a temperament where no intervals are made to vanish, so any temperament "supports" JI; in other words, any temperament is a temperament of JI.</ref><ref>Example uses of this sense can be found on the following pages: [[Subgroup ~~Temperament Families~~, ~~Relationships~~, and ~~Genes~~ #Support]], [[Meet and join #Intra-Subgroup Temperament Meet and Join]], and [[Interior product #Applications]].</ref> Technically speaking, we would say that the lower-nullity temperament's comma space is a [[subspace]] of the higher-nullity temperament's comma space.		An equal temperament is the same thing as a rank-1 temperament, and the initial definition given here where the supporting temperament is rank-1 is the most common use case as of 2022. However, in general, we can say that any lower-[[nullity]] (higher-[[rank]]) temperament is supported by a higher-nullity (lower-rank) temperament if the higher-nullity temperament also makes all the commas that the lower-nullity temperament vanishes vanish.<ref>As an edge case, JI is conceptualized as a temperament where no intervals are made to vanish, so any temperament "supports" JI; in other words, any temperament is a temperament of JI.</ref><ref>Example uses of this sense can be found on the following pages: [[Subgroup temperament families, relationships, and genes#Support]], [[Meet and join #Intra-Subgroup Temperament Meet and Join]], and [[Interior product #Applications]].</ref> Technically speaking, we would say that the lower-nullity temperament's comma space is a [[subspace]] of the higher-nullity temperament's comma space.

	An equivalent generalized definition of "support" would be to say that the lower-''rank'' temperament maps all intervals the same way as the higher-''rank'' temperament does. In this case, the technical definition would be that the lower-rank temperament's mapping-row space is a subspace of the higher-rank temperament's mapping-row space. Another way to say this is that one can find forms of the mappings for these two temperaments where the higher-rank mapping is identical to the lower-rank mapping but with additional mapping rows. To use the 22-ET and pajara example above, we can see that pajara has a mapping form {{rket\|{{map\|12 19 28 34}} {{map\|22 35 51 62}}}}, which contains 22-ET {{map\|22 35 51 62}} as its second row.		An equivalent generalized definition of "support" would be to say that the lower-''rank'' temperament maps all intervals the same way as the higher-''rank'' temperament does. In this case, the technical definition would be that the lower-rank temperament's mapping-row space is a subspace of the higher-rank temperament's mapping-row space. Another way to say this is that one can find forms of the mappings for these two temperaments where the higher-rank mapping is identical to the lower-rank mapping but with additional mapping rows. To use the 22-ET and pajara example above, we can see that pajara has a mapping form {{rket\|{{map\|12 19 28 34}} {{map\|22 35 51 62}}}}, which contains 22-ET {{map\|22 35 51 62}} as its second row.

VectorGraphics at 06:17, 13 February 2025

2025-02-13T06:17:30Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 06:17, 13 February 2025
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	The word "supports" is also used in a more informal and generic sense, both in and outside of regular temperament theory: a pitch structure '''A''' supports another pitch structure '''B''' when '''A''' ''can be used for'' '''B'''. For example, a temperament or tuning may be said to support a scale or a chord, or a temperament may be said to support a tuning of another temperament, or scale may be said to support a chord or harmony within a certain [[prime limit\|prime-]] or [[odd-limit]] or [[domain basis]], etc.		The word "supports" is also used in a more informal and generic sense, both in and outside of regular temperament theory: a pitch structure '''A''' supports another pitch structure '''B''' when '''A''' ''can be used for'' '''B'''. For example, a temperament or tuning may be said to support a scale or a chord, or a temperament may be said to support a tuning of another temperament, or scale may be said to support a chord or harmony within a certain [[prime limit\|prime-]] or [[odd-limit]] or [[domain basis]], etc.

	Most typically, this sense of "support" is reserved for such cases where not only is '''B''' merely possible or ''valid'' with '''A''', but '''A''' is actually ''good'' for '''B'''. The technical RTT sense of "supports" defined above is strictly mathematical and makes no such stipulation of aesthetic goodness, however. According to it, the [[wart notation\|2c]] [[map]] for [[2edo\|2-ET]] supports [[meantone]] despite tuning the fifth to 600¢, well outside the [[diamond tuning ranges]] for meantone. Furthermore, since [[~~0edo~~\|0-ET]] makes ''every'' comma vanish, it therefore supports ''every temperament'', though clearly it does not do so in any musically useful sense. Due to this key difference between the technical RTT definition and the informal general definition, occasionally usages may conflict and surprise some readers.		Most typically, this sense of "support" is reserved for such cases where not only is '''B''' merely possible or ''valid'' with '''A''', but '''A''' is actually ''good'' for '''B'''. The technical RTT sense of "supports" defined above is strictly mathematical and makes no such stipulation of aesthetic goodness, however. According to it, the [[wart notation\|2c]] [[map]] for [[2edo\|2-ET]] supports [[meantone]] despite tuning the fifth to 600¢, well outside the [[diamond tuning ranges]] for meantone. Furthermore, since [[Single-pitch tuning\|0-ET]] makes ''every'' comma vanish, it therefore supports ''every temperament'', though clearly it does not do so in any musically useful sense. Due to this key difference between the technical RTT definition and the informal general definition, occasionally usages may conflict and surprise some readers.

	== Cover ==		== Cover ==

Cmloegcmluin: add historical note re: "cover"

2023-06-30T01:44:45Z

add historical note re: "cover"

← Older revision		Revision as of 01:44, 30 June 2023
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	Most typically, this sense of "support" is reserved for such cases where not only is '''B''' merely possible or ''valid'' with '''A''', but '''A''' is actually ''good'' for '''B'''. The technical RTT sense of "supports" defined above is strictly mathematical and makes no such stipulation of aesthetic goodness, however. According to it, the [[wart notation\|2c]] [[map]] for [[2edo\|2-ET]] supports [[meantone]] despite tuning the fifth to 600¢, well outside the [[diamond tuning ranges]] for meantone. Furthermore, since [[0edo\|0-ET]] makes ''every'' comma vanish, it therefore supports ''every temperament'', though clearly it does not do so in any musically useful sense. Due to this key difference between the technical RTT definition and the informal general definition, occasionally usages may conflict and surprise some readers.		Most typically, this sense of "support" is reserved for such cases where not only is '''B''' merely possible or ''valid'' with '''A''', but '''A''' is actually ''good'' for '''B'''. The technical RTT sense of "supports" defined above is strictly mathematical and makes no such stipulation of aesthetic goodness, however. According to it, the [[wart notation\|2c]] [[map]] for [[2edo\|2-ET]] supports [[meantone]] despite tuning the fifth to 600¢, well outside the [[diamond tuning ranges]] for meantone. Furthermore, since [[0edo\|0-ET]] makes ''every'' comma vanish, it therefore supports ''every temperament'', though clearly it does not do so in any musically useful sense. Due to this key difference between the technical RTT definition and the informal general definition, occasionally usages may conflict and surprise some readers.

			== Cover ==

			Historically, the term "cover" was used in a way that is related to the modern technical RTT sense of "support". It was used in the opposite direction, that is, if 12-ET supports meantone, then meantone ''covers'' 12-ET. This usage can still be found on Graham Breed's website.<ref>[http://x31eq.com/catalog.htm Catalog of Linear Temperaments]</ref> However, usage was inconsistent; Gene Ward Smith used "cover" as synonymous to "support".<ref>[https://yahootuninggroupsultimatebackup.github.io/tuning/topicId_45560#45763 Yahoo! Tuning Groups \| ''Also... Werkmeister III and WTC question...'']</ref>

	== See also ==		== See also ==

Cmloegcmluin: /* Other informal usage */ This was based on a misinterpretation of what was written on that page, so it has been stricken

2023-06-20T18:34:48Z

Other informal usage: This was based on a misinterpretation of what was written on that page, so it has been stricken

← Older revision		Revision as of 18:34, 20 June 2023
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	Most typically, this sense of "support" is reserved for such cases where not only is '''B''' merely possible or ''valid'' with '''A''', but '''A''' is actually ''good'' for '''B'''. The technical RTT sense of "supports" defined above is strictly mathematical and makes no such stipulation of aesthetic goodness, however. According to it, the [[wart notation\|2c]] [[map]] for [[2edo\|2-ET]] supports [[meantone]] despite tuning the fifth to 600¢, well outside the [[diamond tuning ranges]] for meantone. Furthermore, since [[0edo\|0-ET]] makes ''every'' comma vanish, it therefore supports ''every temperament'', though clearly it does not do so in any musically useful sense. Due to this key difference between the technical RTT definition and the informal general definition, occasionally usages may conflict and surprise some readers.		Most typically, this sense of "support" is reserved for such cases where not only is '''B''' merely possible or ''valid'' with '''A''', but '''A''' is actually ''good'' for '''B'''. The technical RTT sense of "supports" defined above is strictly mathematical and makes no such stipulation of aesthetic goodness, however. According to it, the [[wart notation\|2c]] [[map]] for [[2edo\|2-ET]] supports [[meantone]] despite tuning the fifth to 600¢, well outside the [[diamond tuning ranges]] for meantone. Furthermore, since [[0edo\|0-ET]] makes ''every'' comma vanish, it therefore supports ''every temperament'', though clearly it does not do so in any musically useful sense. Due to this key difference between the technical RTT definition and the informal general definition, occasionally usages may conflict and surprise some readers.

	According to the page [[EDO vs ET]], the technical definition of "support" given on this page has met with some contention since at least 2011, though the present author is not aware of links to places where it has been debated. The original definition from Gene Ward Smith dates from 2005, and has been generally accepted and propagated throughout this wiki.

	== See also ==		== See also ==

Cmloegcmluin: interval basis → domain basis (thanks Jukka!)

2023-05-04T00:30:52Z

interval basis → domain basis (thanks Jukka!)

← Older revision		Revision as of 00:30, 4 May 2023
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	== Other informal usage ==		== Other informal usage ==
	The word "supports" is also used in a more informal and generic sense, both in and outside of regular temperament theory: a pitch structure '''A''' supports another pitch structure '''B''' when '''A''' ''can be used for'' '''B'''. For example, a temperament or tuning may be said to support a scale or a chord, or a temperament may be said to support a tuning of another temperament, or scale may be said to support a chord or harmony within a certain [[prime limit\|prime-]] or [[odd-limit]] or [[~~interval~~ basis~~\|interval subspace~~]], etc.		The word "supports" is also used in a more informal and generic sense, both in and outside of regular temperament theory: a pitch structure '''A''' supports another pitch structure '''B''' when '''A''' ''can be used for'' '''B'''. For example, a temperament or tuning may be said to support a scale or a chord, or a temperament may be said to support a tuning of another temperament, or scale may be said to support a chord or harmony within a certain [[prime limit\|prime-]] or [[odd-limit]] or [[domain basis]], etc.

	Most typically, this sense of "support" is reserved for such cases where not only is '''B''' merely possible or ''valid'' with '''A''', but '''A''' is actually ''good'' for '''B'''. The technical RTT sense of "supports" defined above is strictly mathematical and makes no such stipulation of aesthetic goodness, however. According to it, the [[wart notation\|2c]] [[map]] for [[2edo\|2-ET]] supports [[meantone]] despite tuning the fifth to 600¢, well outside the [[diamond tuning ranges]] for meantone. Furthermore, since [[0edo\|0-ET]] makes ''every'' comma vanish, it therefore supports ''every temperament'', though clearly it does not do so in any musically useful sense. Due to this key difference between the technical RTT definition and the informal general definition, occasionally usages may conflict and surprise some readers.		Most typically, this sense of "support" is reserved for such cases where not only is '''B''' merely possible or ''valid'' with '''A''', but '''A''' is actually ''good'' for '''B'''. The technical RTT sense of "supports" defined above is strictly mathematical and makes no such stipulation of aesthetic goodness, however. According to it, the [[wart notation\|2c]] [[map]] for [[2edo\|2-ET]] supports [[meantone]] despite tuning the fifth to 600¢, well outside the [[diamond tuning ranges]] for meantone. Furthermore, since [[0edo\|0-ET]] makes ''every'' comma vanish, it therefore supports ''every temperament'', though clearly it does not do so in any musically useful sense. Due to this key difference between the technical RTT definition and the informal general definition, occasionally usages may conflict and surprise some readers.

Cmloegcmluin: temper out → vanish

2022-12-27T18:04:14Z

temper out → vanish

← Older revision		Revision as of 18:04, 27 December 2022
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	A [[regular temperament]] is '''supported''' by an [[equal temperament]] that ~~[[tempers out]]~~ all of its [[comma]]s<ref>The original definition of support in this RTT sense was given by [[Gene Ward Smith]] in [https://yahootuninggroupsultimatebackup.github.io/tuning-math/topicId_13712#13967], "Suppose T is a wedgie, and v is an equal temperament val. Then v supports T if and only if T^v = 0."</ref>. The equal temperament thus '''supports''' this temperament, or equivalently stated, the equal temperament ''is a temperament of'' this temperament, in the same sense as a temperament is a temperament of [[just intonation]].		A [[regular temperament]] is '''supported''' by an [[equal temperament]] that makes all of its [[comma]]s [[vanish]].<ref>The original definition of support in this RTT sense was given by [[Gene Ward Smith]] in [https://yahootuninggroupsultimatebackup.github.io/tuning-math/topicId_13712#13967], "Suppose T is a wedgie, and v is an equal temperament val. Then v supports T if and only if T^v = 0."</ref> The equal temperament thus '''supports''' this temperament, or equivalently stated, the equal temperament ''is a temperament of'' this temperament, in the same sense as a temperament is a temperament of [[just intonation]].

	For example, [[22edo\|22-ET]] supports [[pajara]], because pajara makes [[225/224]] and [[64/63]] vanish, and so does 22-ET. The supporting temperament will make at least one additional comma vanish; in this example, 22-ET makes [[245/243]] vanish.		For example, [[22edo\|22-ET]] supports [[pajara]], because pajara makes [[225/224]] and [[64/63]] vanish, and so does 22-ET. The supporting temperament will make at least one additional comma vanish; in this example, 22-ET makes [[245/243]] vanish.
Line 5:		Line 5:
	== Generalization ==		== Generalization ==

	An equal temperament is the same thing as a rank-1 temperament, and the initial definition given here where the supporting temperament is rank-1 is the most common use case as of 2022. However, in general, we can say that any lower-[[nullity]] (higher-[[rank]]) temperament is supported by a higher-nullity (lower-rank) temperament if the higher-nullity temperament also makes all the commas that the lower-nullity temperament vanishes vanish.<ref>As an edge case, JI is conceptualized as a temperament where ~~nothing is tempered out~~, so any temperament "supports" JI; in other words, any temperament is a temperament of JI.</ref><ref>Example uses of this sense can be found on the following pages: [[Subgroup Temperament Families, Relationships, and Genes #Support]], [[Meet and join #Intra-Subgroup Temperament Meet and Join]], and [[Interior product #Applications]].</ref> Technically speaking, we would say that the lower-nullity temperament's comma space is a [[subspace]] of the higher-nullity temperament's comma space.		An equal temperament is the same thing as a rank-1 temperament, and the initial definition given here where the supporting temperament is rank-1 is the most common use case as of 2022. However, in general, we can say that any lower-[[nullity]] (higher-[[rank]]) temperament is supported by a higher-nullity (lower-rank) temperament if the higher-nullity temperament also makes all the commas that the lower-nullity temperament vanishes vanish.<ref>As an edge case, JI is conceptualized as a temperament where no intervals are made to vanish, so any temperament "supports" JI; in other words, any temperament is a temperament of JI.</ref><ref>Example uses of this sense can be found on the following pages: [[Subgroup Temperament Families, Relationships, and Genes #Support]], [[Meet and join #Intra-Subgroup Temperament Meet and Join]], and [[Interior product #Applications]].</ref> Technically speaking, we would say that the lower-nullity temperament's comma space is a [[subspace]] of the higher-nullity temperament's comma space.

	An equivalent generalized definition of "support" would be to say that the lower-''rank'' temperament maps all intervals the same way as the higher-''rank'' temperament does. In this case, the technical definition would be that the lower-rank temperament's mapping-row space is a subspace of the higher-rank temperament's mapping-row space. Another way to say this is that one can find forms of the mappings for these two temperaments where the higher-rank mapping is identical to the lower-rank mapping but with additional mapping rows. To use the 22-ET and pajara example above, we can see that pajara has a mapping form {{rket\|{{map\|12 19 28 34}} {{map\|22 35 51 62}}}}, which contains 22-ET {{map\|22 35 51 62}} as its second row.		An equivalent generalized definition of "support" would be to say that the lower-''rank'' temperament maps all intervals the same way as the higher-''rank'' temperament does. In this case, the technical definition would be that the lower-rank temperament's mapping-row space is a subspace of the higher-rank temperament's mapping-row space. Another way to say this is that one can find forms of the mappings for these two temperaments where the higher-rank mapping is identical to the lower-rank mapping but with additional mapping rows. To use the 22-ET and pajara example above, we can see that pajara has a mapping form {{rket\|{{map\|12 19 28 34}} {{map\|22 35 51 62}}}}, which contains 22-ET {{map\|22 35 51 62}} as its second row.

Cmloegcmluin: stylistic and terminological updates

2022-12-27T16:46:26Z

stylistic and terminological updates

← Older revision		Revision as of 16:46, 27 December 2022
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	A [[regular temperament]] is '''supported''' by an [[equal temperament]] that [[tempers out]] all of its [[comma]]s<ref>The original definition of support in this RTT sense was given by [[Gene Ward Smith]] in [https://yahootuninggroupsultimatebackup.github.io/tuning-math/topicId_13712#13967], "Suppose T is a wedgie, and v is an equal temperament val. Then v supports T if and only if T^v = 0."</ref>. The equal temperament thus '''supports''' this temperament, or equivalently stated, the equal temperament ''is a temperament of'' this temperament, in the same sense as a temperament is a temperament of [[just intonation]].		A [[regular temperament]] is '''supported''' by an [[equal temperament]] that [[tempers out]] all of its [[comma]]s<ref>The original definition of support in this RTT sense was given by [[Gene Ward Smith]] in [https://yahootuninggroupsultimatebackup.github.io/tuning-math/topicId_13712#13967], "Suppose T is a wedgie, and v is an equal temperament val. Then v supports T if and only if T^v = 0."</ref>. The equal temperament thus '''supports''' this temperament, or equivalently stated, the equal temperament ''is a temperament of'' this temperament, in the same sense as a temperament is a temperament of [[just intonation]].

	For example, [[22edo\|~~22et~~]] supports [[pajara]], because pajara ~~tempers out~~ [[225/224]] and [[64/63]], and ~~22et tempers out both of those~~. The supporting temperament will ~~temper out~~ at least one additional comma; in this example, ~~22et tempers out~~ [[245/243]].		For example, [[22edo\|22-ET]] supports [[pajara]], because pajara makes [[225/224]] and [[64/63]] vanish, and so does 22-ET. The supporting temperament will make at least one additional comma vanish; in this example, 22-ET makes [[245/243]] vanish.

	== Generalization ==		== Generalization ==

	An equal temperament is the same thing as a rank-1 temperament, and the initial definition given here where the supporting temperament is rank-1 is the most common use case as of 2022. However, in general, we can say that any lower-[[nullity]] (higher-[[rank]]) temperament is supported by a higher-nullity (lower-rank) temperament if the higher-nullity temperament ~~tempers out~~ all the commas the lower-nullity temperament ~~does~~<ref>As an edge case, JI is conceptualized as a temperament where nothing is tempered out, so any temperament "supports" JI; in other words, any temperament is a temperament of JI.</ref><ref>Example uses of this sense can be found on the following pages: [[Subgroup Temperament Families, Relationships, and Genes #Support]], [[Meet and join #Intra-Subgroup Temperament Meet and Join]], and [[Interior product #Applications]].</ref>. Technically speaking, we would say that the lower-nullity temperament's comma space is a [[subspace]] of the higher-nullity temperament's comma space.		An equal temperament is the same thing as a rank-1 temperament, and the initial definition given here where the supporting temperament is rank-1 is the most common use case as of 2022. However, in general, we can say that any lower-[[nullity]] (higher-[[rank]]) temperament is supported by a higher-nullity (lower-rank) temperament if the higher-nullity temperament also makes all the commas that the lower-nullity temperament vanishes vanish.<ref>As an edge case, JI is conceptualized as a temperament where nothing is tempered out, so any temperament "supports" JI; in other words, any temperament is a temperament of JI.</ref><ref>Example uses of this sense can be found on the following pages: [[Subgroup Temperament Families, Relationships, and Genes #Support]], [[Meet and join #Intra-Subgroup Temperament Meet and Join]], and [[Interior product #Applications]].</ref> Technically speaking, we would say that the lower-nullity temperament's comma space is a [[subspace]] of the higher-nullity temperament's comma space.

	An equivalent generalized definition of "support" would be to say that the lower-''rank'' temperament maps all intervals the same way as the higher-''rank'' temperament does. In this case, the technical definition would be that the lower-rank temperament's mapping-row space is a subspace of the higher-rank temperament's mapping-row space. Another way to say this is that one can find forms of the mappings for these two temperaments where the higher-rank mapping is identical to the lower-rank mapping but with additional mapping rows. To use the ~~22et~~ and pajara example above, we can see that pajara has a mapping form {{~~ket~~\| {{map\| 12 19 28 34 }} {{map\| 22 35 51 62 }} }}, which contains ~~22et~~ {{map\| 22 35 51 62 }} as its second row.		An equivalent generalized definition of "support" would be to say that the lower-''rank'' temperament maps all intervals the same way as the higher-''rank'' temperament does. In this case, the technical definition would be that the lower-rank temperament's mapping-row space is a subspace of the higher-rank temperament's mapping-row space. Another way to say this is that one can find forms of the mappings for these two temperaments where the higher-rank mapping is identical to the lower-rank mapping but with additional mapping rows. To use the 22-ET and pajara example above, we can see that pajara has a mapping form {{rket\|{{map\|12 19 28 34}} {{map\|22 35 51 62}}}}, which contains 22-ET {{map\|22 35 51 62}} as its second row.

	== Other informal usage ==		== Other informal usage ==
	The word "supports" is also used in a more informal and generic sense, both in and outside of regular temperament theory: a pitch structure '''A''' supports another pitch structure '''B''' when '''A''' ''can be used for'' '''B'''. For example, a temperament or tuning may be said to support a scale or a chord, or a temperament may be said to support a tuning of another temperament, or scale may be said to support a chord or harmony within a certain [[prime limit\|prime-]] or [[odd-limit]] or [[interval basis\|interval subspace]], etc.		The word "supports" is also used in a more informal and generic sense, both in and outside of regular temperament theory: a pitch structure '''A''' supports another pitch structure '''B''' when '''A''' ''can be used for'' '''B'''. For example, a temperament or tuning may be said to support a scale or a chord, or a temperament may be said to support a tuning of another temperament, or scale may be said to support a chord or harmony within a certain [[prime limit\|prime-]] or [[odd-limit]] or [[interval basis\|interval subspace]], etc.

	Most typically, this sense of "support" is reserved for such cases where not only is '''B''' merely possible or ''valid'' with '''A''', but '''A''' is actually ''good'' for '''B'''. The technical RTT sense of "supports" defined above is strictly mathematical and makes no such stipulation of aesthetic goodness, however. According to it, the [[wart notation\|2c]] [[map]] for [[2edo\|~~2et~~]] supports [[meantone]] despite tuning the fifth to 600¢, well outside the [[diamond tuning ranges]] for meantone. Furthermore, since [[0edo\|~~0et~~]] ~~tempers out~~ every comma, it therefore supports ''every temperament'', though clearly it does not do so in any musically useful sense. Due to this key difference between the technical RTT definition and the informal general definition, occasionally usages may conflict and surprise some readers.		Most typically, this sense of "support" is reserved for such cases where not only is '''B''' merely possible or ''valid'' with '''A''', but '''A''' is actually ''good'' for '''B'''. The technical RTT sense of "supports" defined above is strictly mathematical and makes no such stipulation of aesthetic goodness, however. According to it, the [[wart notation\|2c]] [[map]] for [[2edo\|2-ET]] supports [[meantone]] despite tuning the fifth to 600¢, well outside the [[diamond tuning ranges]] for meantone. Furthermore, since [[0edo\|0-ET]] makes ''every'' comma vanish, it therefore supports ''every temperament'', though clearly it does not do so in any musically useful sense. Due to this key difference between the technical RTT definition and the informal general definition, occasionally usages may conflict and surprise some readers.

	According to the page [[EDO vs ET]], the technical definition of "support" given on this page has met with some contention since at least 2011, though the present author is not aware of links to places where it has been debated. The original definition from Gene Ward Smith dates from 2005, and has been generally accepted and propagated throughout this wiki.		According to the page [[EDO vs ET]], the technical definition of "support" given on this page has met with some contention since at least 2011, though the present author is not aware of links to places where it has been debated. The original definition from Gene Ward Smith dates from 2005, and has been generally accepted and propagated throughout this wiki.

FloraC: Actually, "support" is synonymous to "is a temperament of" and from here "any temperament supports JI" is self-explanatory. It seems silly to me to exclude that case

2022-10-17T08:10:56Z

Actually, "support" is synonymous to "is a temperament of" and from here "any temperament supports JI" is self-explanatory. It seems silly to me to exclude that case

← Older revision		Revision as of 08:10, 17 October 2022
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	A [[regular temperament]] is '''supported''' by an [[equal temperament]] that [[tempers out]] all of its [[comma]]s<ref>The original definition of support in this RTT sense was given by [[Gene Ward Smith]] in [https://yahootuninggroupsultimatebackup.github.io/tuning-math/topicId_13712#13967], "Suppose T is a wedgie, and v is an equal temperament val. Then v supports T if and only if T^v = 0."</ref>. The equal temperament thus '''supports''' this temperament.		A [[regular temperament]] is '''supported''' by an [[equal temperament]] that [[tempers out]] all of its [[comma]]s<ref>The original definition of support in this RTT sense was given by [[Gene Ward Smith]] in [https://yahootuninggroupsultimatebackup.github.io/tuning-math/topicId_13712#13967], "Suppose T is a wedgie, and v is an equal temperament val. Then v supports T if and only if T^v = 0."</ref>. The equal temperament thus '''supports''' this temperament, or equivalently stated, the equal temperament ''is a temperament of'' this temperament, in the same sense as a temperament is a temperament of [[just intonation]].

	For example, [[22edo]] supports [[pajara]], because pajara tempers out [[225/224]] and [[64/63]], and 22et tempers out both of those. The supporting temperament will temper out at least one additional comma; in this example, 22et tempers out [[245/243]].		For example, [[22edo\|22et]] supports [[pajara]], because pajara tempers out [[225/224]] and [[64/63]], and 22et tempers out both of those. The supporting temperament will temper out at least one additional comma; in this example, 22et tempers out [[245/243]].

	== Generalization ==		== Generalization ==

	An equal temperament is the same thing as a rank-1 temperament, and the initial definition given here where the supporting temperament is rank-1 is the most common use case as of 2022. However, in general, we can say that any lower-[[nullity]] (higher-[[rank]]) temperament is supported by a higher-nullity (lower-rank) temperament if the higher-nullity temperament tempers out all the commas the lower-nullity temperament does<ref>~~This is~~ an edge case, ~~but a temperament should have at least one comma to satisfy this definition; [[~~JI~~]] may be~~ conceptualized as a temperament where nothing is tempered out, ~~but clearly it would be silly to say that~~ any temperament "supports" JI.</ref><ref>Example uses of this sense can be found on the following pages: [[Subgroup Temperament Families, Relationships, and Genes #Support]], [[Meet and join #Intra-Subgroup Temperament Meet and Join]], and [[Interior product #Applications]].</ref>. Technically speaking, we would say that the lower-nullity temperament's comma space is a [[subspace]] of the higher-nullity temperament's comma space.		An equal temperament is the same thing as a rank-1 temperament, and the initial definition given here where the supporting temperament is rank-1 is the most common use case as of 2022. However, in general, we can say that any lower-[[nullity]] (higher-[[rank]]) temperament is supported by a higher-nullity (lower-rank) temperament if the higher-nullity temperament tempers out all the commas the lower-nullity temperament does<ref>As an edge case, JI is conceptualized as a temperament where nothing is tempered out, so any temperament "supports" JI; in other words, any temperament is a temperament of JI.</ref><ref>Example uses of this sense can be found on the following pages: [[Subgroup Temperament Families, Relationships, and Genes #Support]], [[Meet and join #Intra-Subgroup Temperament Meet and Join]], and [[Interior product #Applications]].</ref>. Technically speaking, we would say that the lower-nullity temperament's comma space is a [[subspace]] of the higher-nullity temperament's comma space.

	An equivalent generalized definition of "support" would be to say that the lower-''rank'' temperament maps all intervals the same way as the higher-''rank'' temperament does. In this case, the technical definition would be that the lower-rank temperament's mapping-row space is a subspace of the higher-rank temperament's mapping-row space. Another way to say this is that one can find forms of the mappings for these two temperaments where the higher-rank mapping is identical to the lower-rank mapping but with additional mapping rows. To use the 22et and pajara example above, we can see that pajara has a mapping form {{ket\| {{map\| 12 19 28 34 }} {{map\| 22 35 51 62 }} }}, which contains 22et {{map\| 22 35 51 62 }} as its second row.		An equivalent generalized definition of "support" would be to say that the lower-''rank'' temperament maps all intervals the same way as the higher-''rank'' temperament does. In this case, the technical definition would be that the lower-rank temperament's mapping-row space is a subspace of the higher-rank temperament's mapping-row space. Another way to say this is that one can find forms of the mappings for these two temperaments where the higher-rank mapping is identical to the lower-rank mapping but with additional mapping rows. To use the 22et and pajara example above, we can see that pajara has a mapping form {{ket\| {{map\| 12 19 28 34 }} {{map\| 22 35 51 62 }} }}, which contains 22et {{map\| 22 35 51 62 }} as its second row.

FloraC: Style and clarifications

2022-10-17T07:52:36Z

Style and clarifications

← Older revision		Revision as of 07:52, 17 October 2022
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	A [[regular temperament]] is '''supported''' by an [[equal temperament]] that [[tempers out]] all of its [[comma]]s<ref>The original definition of support in this RTT sense was given by [[Gene Ward Smith]] ~~here:~~ https://yahootuninggroupsultimatebackup.github.io/tuning-math/topicId_13712#13967, "Suppose T is a wedgie, and v is an equal temperament val. Then v supports T if and only if T^v = 0."</ref>. The ET thus '''supports''' this temperament.		A [[regular temperament]] is '''supported''' by an [[equal temperament]] that [[tempers out]] all of its [[comma]]s<ref>The original definition of support in this RTT sense was given by [[Gene Ward Smith]] in [https://yahootuninggroupsultimatebackup.github.io/tuning-math/topicId_13712#13967], "Suppose T is a wedgie, and v is an equal temperament val. Then v supports T if and only if T^v = 0."</ref>. The equal temperament thus '''supports''' this temperament.

	For example, [[22edo~~\|22-ET~~]] supports [[pajara]], because pajara tempers out [[225/224]] and [[64/63]], and ~~22-ET~~ tempers out both of those. The supporting temperament will temper out at least one additional comma; in this example, ~~22-ET~~ tempers out ~~a single additional comma,~~ [[245/243]].		For example, [[22edo]] supports [[pajara]], because pajara tempers out [[225/224]] and [[64/63]], and 22et tempers out both of those. The supporting temperament will temper out at least one additional comma; in this example, 22et tempers out [[245/243]].

	== Generalization ==		== Generalization ==

	An equal temperament is the same thing as a rank-1 temperament, and the initial definition given here where the supporting temperament is rank-1 is ~~by far~~ the most common use case. However, in general, we can say that any lower-[[nullity]] (higher-[[rank]]) temperament is supported by a higher-nullity (lower-rank) temperament if the higher-nullity temperament tempers out all the commas the lower-nullity temperament does<ref>This is an edge case, but a temperament should have at least one comma to satisfy this definition; [[JI]] may be conceptualized as a temperament where nothing is tempered out, but clearly it would be silly to say that any temperament "supports" JI.</ref><ref>Example uses of this sense can be found on the following pages: [[Subgroup Temperament Families, Relationships, and Genes #Support]], [[Meet and join #Intra-Subgroup Temperament Meet and Join]], and [[Interior product #Applications]].</ref>. Technically speaking, we would say that the lower-nullity temperament's comma space is a [[subspace]] of the higher-nullity temperament's comma space.		An equal temperament is the same thing as a rank-1 temperament, and the initial definition given here where the supporting temperament is rank-1 is the most common use case as of 2022. However, in general, we can say that any lower-[[nullity]] (higher-[[rank]]) temperament is supported by a higher-nullity (lower-rank) temperament if the higher-nullity temperament tempers out all the commas the lower-nullity temperament does<ref>This is an edge case, but a temperament should have at least one comma to satisfy this definition; [[JI]] may be conceptualized as a temperament where nothing is tempered out, but clearly it would be silly to say that any temperament "supports" JI.</ref><ref>Example uses of this sense can be found on the following pages: [[Subgroup Temperament Families, Relationships, and Genes #Support]], [[Meet and join #Intra-Subgroup Temperament Meet and Join]], and [[Interior product #Applications]].</ref>. Technically speaking, we would say that the lower-nullity temperament's comma space is a [[subspace]] of the higher-nullity temperament's comma space.

	An equivalent generalized definition of "support" would be to say that the lower-''rank'' temperament's maps all intervals the same way as the higher-''rank'' temperament does. In this case, the technical definition would be that the lower-rank temperament's mapping-row space is a subspace of the higher-rank temperament's mapping-row space. Another way to say this is that one can find forms of the mappings for these two temperaments where the higher-rank mapping is identical to the lower-rank mapping but with additional mapping rows. To use the ~~22-ET~~ and pajara example above, we can see that pajara has a mapping form {{ket\|{{map\|12 19 28 34}} {{map\|22 35 51 62}}}}, which contains ~~22-ET~~ {{map\|22 35 51 62}} as its second row.		An equivalent generalized definition of "support" would be to say that the lower-''rank'' temperament maps all intervals the same way as the higher-''rank'' temperament does. In this case, the technical definition would be that the lower-rank temperament's mapping-row space is a subspace of the higher-rank temperament's mapping-row space. Another way to say this is that one can find forms of the mappings for these two temperaments where the higher-rank mapping is identical to the lower-rank mapping but with additional mapping rows. To use the 22et and pajara example above, we can see that pajara has a mapping form {{ket\| {{map\| 12 19 28 34 }} {{map\| 22 35 51 62 }} }}, which contains 22et {{map\| 22 35 51 62 }} as its second row.

	~~== Other informal definition ==~~

			== Other informal usage ==
	The word "supports" is also used in a more informal and generic sense, both in and outside of regular temperament theory: a pitch structure '''A''' supports another pitch structure '''B''' when '''A''' ''can be used for'' '''B'''. For example, a temperament or tuning may be said to support a scale or a chord, or a temperament may be said to support a tuning of another temperament, or scale may be said to support a chord or harmony within a certain [[prime limit\|prime-]] or [[odd-limit]] or [[interval basis\|interval subspace]], etc.		The word "supports" is also used in a more informal and generic sense, both in and outside of regular temperament theory: a pitch structure '''A''' supports another pitch structure '''B''' when '''A''' ''can be used for'' '''B'''. For example, a temperament or tuning may be said to support a scale or a chord, or a temperament may be said to support a tuning of another temperament, or scale may be said to support a chord or harmony within a certain [[prime limit\|prime-]] or [[odd-limit]] or [[interval basis\|interval subspace]], etc.

	Most typically, this sense of "support" is reserved for such cases where not only is '''B''' merely possible or ''valid'' with '''A''', but '''A''' is actually ''good'' for '''B'''. The technical RTT sense of "supports" defined above is strictly mathematical and makes no such stipulation of aesthetic goodness, however. According to it, the [[wart notation\|2c]] [[map]] for [[2edo\|~~2-ET~~]] supports [[meantone]] despite tuning the fifth to ~~600c~~, well outside the [[diamond tuning ranges]] for meantone. Furthermore, since [[0edo\|~~0-ET~~]] tempers out every comma, it therefore supports ''every temperament'', though clearly it does not do so in any musically useful sense. Due to this key difference between the technical RTT definition and the informal general definition, occasionally usages may conflict and surprise some readers.		Most typically, this sense of "support" is reserved for such cases where not only is '''B''' merely possible or ''valid'' with '''A''', but '''A''' is actually ''good'' for '''B'''. The technical RTT sense of "supports" defined above is strictly mathematical and makes no such stipulation of aesthetic goodness, however. According to it, the [[wart notation\|2c]] [[map]] for [[2edo\|2et]] supports [[meantone]] despite tuning the fifth to 600¢, well outside the [[diamond tuning ranges]] for meantone. Furthermore, since [[0edo\|0et]] tempers out every comma, it therefore supports ''every temperament'', though clearly it does not do so in any musically useful sense. Due to this key difference between the technical RTT definition and the informal general definition, occasionally usages may conflict and surprise some readers.

	According to the page [[EDO vs ET]], the technical definition of "support" given on this page has met with some contention since at least 2011, though the present author is not aware of links to places where it has been debated. The original definition from Gene Ward Smith dates from 2005, and has been generally accepted and propagated throughout this wiki.		According to the page [[EDO vs ET]], the technical definition of "support" given on this page has met with some contention since at least 2011, though the present author is not aware of links to places where it has been debated. The original definition from Gene Ward Smith dates from 2005, and has been generally accepted and propagated throughout this wiki.

	== See also ==		== See also ==
			* [[Lists of edo-distinct temperaments\|EDO-distinct temperaments]]
	* [[~~Lists_of_edo~~-~~distinct_temperaments~~\|EDO-distinct temperaments]]

	== Footnotes ==		== Footnotes ==

	<references/>		<references/>