Pedagogy questions - Revision history

BudjarnLambeth: Add links

2024-11-16T23:08:05Z

Add links

BudjarnLambeth at 23:04, 16 November 2024

2024-11-16T23:04:03Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 23:04, 16 November 2024
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	Some questions to consider as input to thinking about microtonal pedagogy. Contributions from people with experience are welcome.		Some questions to consider as input to thinking about microtonal pedagogy. Contributions from people with experience are welcome.

	== ~~What considerations does the particular question of a microtonal pedagogy warrant?~~ ==		== Answered questions ==
	~~{{todo\|answer questions\|inline=1}}~~		(But still feel free to add your own answers too!)

	~~== What does one consider when endeavoring~~ to ~~write pieces of microtonal music that also teach the microtones that they use? ==~~
	~~{{todo\|answer questions\|inline=1}}~~

	== When is learning a microtonal system of pitches harder than learning the 12-equal system? When is it easier? ==		=== When is learning a microtonal system of pitches harder than learning the 12-equal system? When is it easier? ===
	=== x31eq's answer ===		==== [[Graham Breed\|x31eq]]'s answer ====
	This is a first draft. If you think I'm wrong, edit the page to say why.		This is a first draft. If you think I'm wrong, edit the page to say why.

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	* They resonate more with the subject's culture than the western chromatic; depends on context, and becoming less likely.		* They resonate more with the subject's culture than the western chromatic; depends on context, and becoming less likely.

	== When does experience in 12 help in learning non-12? When does it hinder? ==		=== When does experience in 12 help in learning non-12? When does it hinder? ===
	=== x31eq's answer ===		==== x31eq's answer ====
	Microtonality shouldn't be thought of as a practice distinct from music making. Experience of learning music will naturally translate into learning music in other tunings. In many cases experience of traditional music may not really be in 12-equal at all. However, the question's framed in terms of a dichotomy, so let's answer it that way.		Microtonality shouldn't be thought of as a practice distinct from music making. Experience of learning music will naturally translate into learning music in other tunings. In many cases experience of traditional music may not really be in 12-equal at all. However, the question's framed in terms of a dichotomy, so let's answer it that way.

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	Experience may hinder when it conflicts with the new system being learned. Paradoxically, the most accomplished musicians will have the most difficulty because their habits are the most ingrained.		Experience may hinder when it conflicts with the new system being learned. Paradoxically, the most accomplished musicians will have the most difficulty because their habits are the most ingrained.

	== ~~To what degree can~~ the ~~need for a~~ microtonal ~~pedagogy address a general problem of missing language in speaking microtonality~~? ==		=== What method books and teaching tools do you recommend for the microtonal student? ===
			The ones listed on the following page: [[Method books teaching tools]].

			== Unanswered questions ==
	{{todo\|answer questions\|inline=1}}		{{todo\|answer questions\|inline=1}}

	== ~~In whose interest is it~~ to ~~sequester off learning/education/~~pedagogy ~~into~~ a ~~separate page, as if learning only happens~~ in ~~schools/when you want it to~~? ==		=== What considerations does the particular question of a microtonal pedagogy warrant? ===
	~~{{todo\|answer questions\|inline~~=~~1}}~~
			=== What does one consider when endeavouring to write pieces of microtonal music that also teach the microtones that they use? ===

			=== To what degree can the need for a microtonal pedagogy address a general problem of missing language in speaking microtonality? ===

	== ~~What method books and teaching tools do~~ you ~~recommend for the microtonal student~~? ==		=== In whose interest is it to sequester off learning/education/pedagogy into a separate page, as if learning only happens in schools/when you want it to? ===
	~~See [[Method books teaching tools]]~~

	[[Category:Pedagogy]]		[[Category:Pedagogy]]

BudjarnLambeth: Remove exact duplicate question

2024-11-16T22:59:15Z

Remove exact duplicate question

← Older revision		Revision as of 22:59, 16 November 2024
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	Experience may hinder when it conflicts with the new system being learned. Paradoxically, the most accomplished musicians will have the most difficulty because their habits are the most ingrained.		Experience may hinder when it conflicts with the new system being learned. Paradoxically, the most accomplished musicians will have the most difficulty because their habits are the most ingrained.

	~~== When does experience in non-12 help in learning 12? When does it hinder? ==~~
	~~{{todo\|answer questions\|inline=1}}~~

	~~=== And vice versa? ===~~
	~~{{todo\|answer questions\|inline=1}}~~

	== To what degree can the need for a microtonal pedagogy address a general problem of missing language in speaking microtonality? ==		== To what degree can the need for a microtonal pedagogy address a general problem of missing language in speaking microtonality? ==

BudjarnLambeth: Todo

2024-11-16T21:29:33Z

Todo

← Older revision		Revision as of 21:29, 16 November 2024
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	== What considerations does the particular question of a microtonal pedagogy warrant? ==		== What considerations does the particular question of a microtonal pedagogy warrant? ==
			{{todo\|answer questions\|inline=1}}

	== What does one consider when endeavoring to write pieces of microtonal music that also teach the microtones that they use? ==		== What does one consider when endeavoring to write pieces of microtonal music that also teach the microtones that they use? ==
			{{todo\|answer questions\|inline=1}}

	== When is learning a microtonal system of pitches harder than learning the 12-equal system? When is it easier? ==		== When is learning a microtonal system of pitches harder than learning the 12-equal system? When is it easier? ==
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	== When does experience in non-12 help in learning 12? When does it hinder? ==		== When does experience in non-12 help in learning 12? When does it hinder? ==
			{{todo\|answer questions\|inline=1}}

			=== And vice versa? ===
			{{todo\|answer questions\|inline=1}}

	== To what degree can the need for a microtonal pedagogy address a general problem of missing language in speaking microtonality? ==		== To what degree can the need for a microtonal pedagogy address a general problem of missing language in speaking microtonality? ==
			{{todo\|answer questions\|inline=1}}

	== In whose interest is it to sequester off learning/education/pedagogy into a separate page, as if learning only happens in schools/when you want it to? ==		== In whose interest is it to sequester off learning/education/pedagogy into a separate page, as if learning only happens in schools/when you want it to? ==
			{{todo\|answer questions\|inline=1}}

	== What method books and teaching tools do you recommend for the microtonal student? ==		== What method books and teaching tools do you recommend for the microtonal student? ==

BudjarnLambeth at 05:49, 14 November 2024

2024-11-14T05:49:47Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 05:49, 14 November 2024
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			'''See also: [[Frequently asked questions]].'''

	Some questions to consider as input to thinking about microtonal pedagogy. Contributions from people with experience are welcome.		Some questions to consider as input to thinking about microtonal pedagogy. Contributions from people with experience are welcome.

Fredg999: Formatting, merged in PedagogyTradeoffs and ExperienceHelpingMicrotonality (we can split later if this page becomes enormous, but it doesn't seem very active so far), categories

2023-03-08T01:57:58Z

Formatting, merged in PedagogyTradeoffs and ExperienceHelpingMicrotonality (we can split later if this page becomes enormous, but it doesn't seem very active so far), categories

← Older revision		Revision as of 01:57, 8 March 2023
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	~~=Questions=~~		Some questions to consider as input to thinking about microtonal pedagogy. Contributions from people with experience are welcome.

	~~Some questions to consider as input to thinking about~~ microtonal pedagogy~~. Follow the links to specific topics.~~		== What considerations does the particular question of a microtonal pedagogy warrant? ==

	~~[[microtonal_pedagogy_considerations\|~~What ~~considerations~~ does ~~the particular question~~ of a microtonal ~~pedagogy warrant~~?]]		== What does one consider when endeavoring to write pieces of microtonal music that also teach the microtones that they use? ==

	~~[[music_that_teaches_itself\|What does one consider when endeavoring to write pieces~~ of ~~microtonal music that also teach~~ the ~~microtones that they use~~?]]		== When is learning a microtonal system of pitches harder than learning the 12-equal system? When is it easier? ==
			=== x31eq's answer ===
			This is a first draft. If you think I'm wrong, edit the page to say why.

	~~[[when_are_microtones_easy\|When is learning~~ a microtonal system ~~of pitches~~ harder than ~~learning the~~ 12-equal ~~system? When~~ is ~~it easier?]]~~		Learning a microtonal system is harder than 12-equal where it's more complex and the harmonic context is not intuitively apparent. Which is most of the time (and sometimes so by definiton).

	~~'''''Answered~~ in ~~[[PedagogyTradeoffs\|PedagogyTradeoffs]]'''''~~		However, systems that are microtonal relative to 12-equal may be easier to learn in several ways:

	~~[[learning_conflicting_pitch_systems\|When does experience~~ in ~~12 help in learning non-12? When does it hinder?]]~~		* The have fewer notes. For example, slendro, pelog, various other diatonics.
			* They are closer to natural harmonies: just intonation, microtemperament, and equivalents in alternative timbres.
			* They resonate more with the subject's culture than the western chromatic; depends on context, and becoming less likely.

	'''~~''Answered~~ in ~~[[ExperienceHelpingMicrotonality\|ExperienceHelpingMicrotonality]]''''~~'		== When does experience in 12 help in learning non-12? When does it hinder? ==
			=== x31eq's answer ===
			Microtonality shouldn't be thought of as a practice distinct from music making. Experience of learning music will naturally translate into learning music in other tunings. In many cases experience of traditional music may not really be in 12-equal at all. However, the question's framed in terms of a dichotomy, so let's answer it that way.

	~~[[learning_conflicting_pitch_systems\|When does~~ experience in non-12 ~~help in learning 12? When does it hinder?]]~~		Mostly it depends on the nature of the experience, and how non-12 is being learned. Making this a useful topic for microtonal pedagogy of course.

	[[~~missing_language~~\|~~To what degree can~~ the ~~need for a microtonal pedagogy address a general problem~~ of ~~missing language~~ in ~~speaking microtonality?]]~~		If the musician has experience of tonal music with correct spelling, a transition to extended [[Meantone\|Meantone]] is natural. Early pieces should enforce the 5-limit diatonic framework and move gradually to more remote notes and harmonies. A theoretical knowledge of harmony also helps because many of those rules were laid down in a meantone context.

	[[~~sequestering_learning~~\|~~In whose interest is it to sequester off learning/education/pedagogy into a separate page~~, ~~as if learning only happens in schools/when you want it~~ to?]]		If the musician thinks in terms of enharmonic equivalences, a procedure of dividing the equal tempered semitone is most productive. This leads first to quartertones ([[24edo\|24edo]]), but also to [[72edo\|72edo]], where they can learn 11-limit harmonies.

	[[~~method_books_teaching_tools~~\|What method books and teaching tools do you recommend for the microtonal student?]]		Musicians with a Pythagorean mindset (most likely string players) may take to schismatic temperament (see [[Regular_Temperaments\|Regular Temperaments]]) or divisions of the semitone (above). They will have much more trouble with extended meantone (also above).

			Experience may hinder when it conflicts with the new system being learned. Paradoxically, the most accomplished musicians will have the most difficulty because their habits are the most ingrained.

			== When does experience in non-12 help in learning 12? When does it hinder? ==

			== To what degree can the need for a microtonal pedagogy address a general problem of missing language in speaking microtonality? ==

			== In whose interest is it to sequester off learning/education/pedagogy into a separate page, as if learning only happens in schools/when you want it to? ==

			== What method books and teaching tools do you recommend for the microtonal student? ==
			See [[Method books teaching tools]]

			[[Category:Pedagogy]]

Wikispaces>FREEZE at 00:00, 17 July 2018

2018-07-17T00:00:00Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 00:00, 17 July 2018
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	~~<h2>IMPORTED REVISION FROM WIKISPACES</h2>~~
	~~This is an imported revision from Wikispaces. The revision metadata is included below for reference:<br>~~
	~~: This revision was by author [[User:genewardsmith\|genewardsmith]] and made on <tt>2012-01-01 23:48:39 UTC</tt>.<br>~~
	~~: The original revision id was <tt>289016401</tt>.<br>~~
	~~: The revision comment was: <tt></tt><br>~~
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	=Questions=		=Questions=

	Some questions to consider as input to thinking about microtonal pedagogy. Follow the links to specific topics.		Some questions to consider as input to thinking about microtonal pedagogy. Follow the links to specific topics.

	[[~~microtonal pedagogy considerations~~\|What considerations does the particular question of a microtonal pedagogy warrant?]]		[[microtonal_pedagogy_considerations\|What considerations does the particular question of a microtonal pedagogy warrant?]]

	[[~~music that teaches itself~~\|What does one consider when endeavoring to write pieces of microtonal music that also teach the microtones that they use?]]		[[music_that_teaches_itself\|What does one consider when endeavoring to write pieces of microtonal music that also teach the microtones that they use?]]

	[[~~when are microtones easy~~\|When is learning a microtonal system of pitches harder than learning the 12-equal system? When is it easier?]]		[[when_are_microtones_easy\|When is learning a microtonal system of pitches harder than learning the 12-equal system? When is it easier?]]

	//Answered in [[PedagogyTradeoffs]]//		'''''Answered in [[PedagogyTradeoffs\|PedagogyTradeoffs]]'''''

	[[~~learning conflicting pitch systems~~\|When does experience in 12 help in learning non-12? When does it hinder?]]		[[learning_conflicting_pitch_systems\|When does experience in 12 help in learning non-12? When does it hinder?]]

	//Answered in [[ExperienceHelpingMicrotonality]]//		'''''Answered in [[ExperienceHelpingMicrotonality\|ExperienceHelpingMicrotonality]]'''''

	[[~~learning conflicting pitch systems~~\|When does experience in non-12 help in learning 12? When does it hinder?]]		[[learning_conflicting_pitch_systems\|When does experience in non-12 help in learning 12? When does it hinder?]]

	[[~~missing language~~\|To what degree can the need for a microtonal pedagogy address a general problem of missing language in speaking microtonality?]]		[[missing_language\|To what degree can the need for a microtonal pedagogy address a general problem of missing language in speaking microtonality?]]

	[[~~sequestering learning~~\|In whose interest is it to sequester off learning/education/pedagogy into a separate page, as if learning only happens in schools/when you want it to?]]		[[sequestering_learning\|In whose interest is it to sequester off learning/education/pedagogy into a separate page, as if learning only happens in schools/when you want it to?]]

	[[~~method books teaching tools~~\|What method books and teaching tools do you recommend for the microtonal student?]]~~</pre></div>~~		[[method_books_teaching_tools\|What method books and teaching tools do you recommend for the microtonal student?]]
	~~<h4>Original HTML content:</h4>~~
	<div style="width:100%; max-height:400pt; overflow:auto; background-color:#f8f9fa; border: 1px solid #eaecf0; padding:0em"><pre style="margin:0px;border:none;background:none;word-wrap:break-word;width:200%;white-space: pre-wrap ! important" class="old-revision-html"><html><head><title>Pedagogy questions</title></head><body><br />
	~~<!-- ws:start:WikiTextHeadingRule:0:&lt;h1&gt; --><h1 id="toc0"><a name="Questions"></a><!-- ws:end:WikiTextHeadingRule:0 -->Questions</h1>~~
	~~<br />~~
	~~Some questions to consider as input to thinking about microtonal pedagogy. Follow the links to specific topics.<br />~~
	~~<br />~~
	~~<a class="wiki_link" href="/microtonal%20pedagogy%20considerations">What considerations does the particular question of a microtonal pedagogy warrant?</a><br />~~
	~~<br />~~
	<a class="wiki_link" href="/music%20that%20teaches%20itself">What does one consider when endeavoring to write pieces of microtonal music that also teach the microtones that they use?</a><br />
	~~<br />~~
	~~<a class="wiki_link" href="/when%20are%20microtones%20easy">When is learning a microtonal system of pitches harder than learning the 12-equal system? When is it easier?</a><br />~~
	~~<br />~~
	~~<strong><em>Answered in <a class="wiki_link" href="/PedagogyTradeoffs">PedagogyTradeoffs</a></em></strong><br />~~
	~~<br />~~
	~~<a class="wiki_link" href="/learning%20conflicting%20pitch%20systems">When does experience in 12 help in learning non-12? When does it hinder?</a><br />~~
	~~<br />~~
	~~<strong><em>Answered in <a class="wiki_link" href="/ExperienceHelpingMicrotonality">ExperienceHelpingMicrotonality</a></em></strong><br />~~
	~~<br />~~
	~~<a class="wiki_link" href="/learning%20conflicting%20pitch%20systems">When does experience in non-12 help in learning 12? When does it hinder?</a><br />~~
	~~<br />~~
	<a class="wiki_link" href="/missing%20language">To what degree can the need for a microtonal pedagogy address a general problem of missing language in speaking microtonality?</a><br />
	~~<br />~~
	<a class="wiki_link" href="/sequestering%20learning">In whose interest is it to sequester off learning/education/pedagogy into a separate page, as if learning only happens in schools/when you want it to?</a><br />
	~~<br />~~
	~~<a class="wiki_link" href="/method%20books%20teaching%20tools">What method books and teaching tools do you recommend for the microtonal student?</a></body></html></pre></div>~~

Wikispaces>genewardsmith: Imported revision 289016401 - Original comment:

2012-01-01T23:48:39Z

**Imported revision 289016401 - Original comment: **

New page

<h2>IMPORTED REVISION FROM WIKISPACES</h2>
This is an imported revision from Wikispaces. The revision metadata is included below for reference:<br>
: This revision was by author [[User:genewardsmith|genewardsmith]] and made on <tt>2012-01-01 23:48:39 UTC</tt>.<br>
: The original revision id was <tt>289016401</tt>.<br>
: The revision comment was: <tt></tt><br>
The revision contents are below, presented both in the original Wikispaces Wikitext format, and in HTML exactly as Wikispaces rendered it.<br>
<h4>Original Wikitext content:</h4>
<div style="width:100%; max-height:400pt; overflow:auto; background-color:#f8f9fa; border: 1px solid #eaecf0; padding:0em"><pre style="margin:0px;border:none;background:none;word-wrap:break-word;white-space: pre-wrap ! important" class="old-revision-html">
=Questions=

Some questions to consider as input to thinking about microtonal pedagogy. Follow the links to specific topics.

[[microtonal pedagogy considerations|What considerations does the particular question of a microtonal pedagogy warrant?]]

[[music that teaches itself|What does one consider when endeavoring to write pieces of microtonal music that also teach the microtones that they use?]]

[[when are microtones easy|When is learning a microtonal system of pitches harder than learning the 12-equal system? When is it easier?]]

**//Answered in [[PedagogyTradeoffs]]//**

[[learning conflicting pitch systems|When does experience in 12 help in learning non-12? When does it hinder?]]

**//Answered in [[ExperienceHelpingMicrotonality]]//**

[[learning conflicting pitch systems|When does experience in non-12 help in learning 12? When does it hinder?]]

[[missing language|To what degree can the need for a microtonal pedagogy address a general problem of missing language in speaking microtonality?]]

[[sequestering learning|In whose interest is it to sequester off learning/education/pedagogy into a separate page, as if learning only happens in schools/when you want it to?]]

[[method books teaching tools|What method books and teaching tools do you recommend for the microtonal student?]]</pre></div>
<h4>Original HTML content:</h4>
<div style="width:100%; max-height:400pt; overflow:auto; background-color:#f8f9fa; border: 1px solid #eaecf0; padding:0em"><pre style="margin:0px;border:none;background:none;word-wrap:break-word;width:200%;white-space: pre-wrap ! important" class="old-revision-html"><html><head><title>Pedagogy questions</title></head><body><br />
<h1 id="toc0"><a name="Questions"></a>Questions</h1>
<br />
Some questions to consider as input to thinking about microtonal pedagogy. Follow the links to specific topics.<br />
<br />
<a class="wiki_link" href="/microtonal%20pedagogy%20considerations">What considerations does the particular question of a microtonal pedagogy warrant?</a><br />
<br />
<a class="wiki_link" href="/music%20that%20teaches%20itself">What does one consider when endeavoring to write pieces of microtonal music that also teach the microtones that they use?</a><br />
<br />
<a class="wiki_link" href="/when%20are%20microtones%20easy">When is learning a microtonal system of pitches harder than learning the 12-equal system? When is it easier?</a><br />
<br />
<strong><em>Answered in <a class="wiki_link" href="/PedagogyTradeoffs">PedagogyTradeoffs</a></em></strong><br />
<br />
<a class="wiki_link" href="/learning%20conflicting%20pitch%20systems">When does experience in 12 help in learning non-12? When does it hinder?</a><br />
<br />
<strong><em>Answered in <a class="wiki_link" href="/ExperienceHelpingMicrotonality">ExperienceHelpingMicrotonality</a></em></strong><br />
<br />
<a class="wiki_link" href="/learning%20conflicting%20pitch%20systems">When does experience in non-12 help in learning 12? When does it hinder?</a><br />
<br />
<a class="wiki_link" href="/missing%20language">To what degree can the need for a microtonal pedagogy address a general problem of missing language in speaking microtonality?</a><br />
<br />
<a class="wiki_link" href="/sequestering%20learning">In whose interest is it to sequester off learning/education/pedagogy into a separate page, as if learning only happens in schools/when you want it to?</a><br />
<br />
<a class="wiki_link" href="/method%20books%20teaching%20tools">What method books and teaching tools do you recommend for the microtonal student?</a></body></html></pre></div>

← Older revision		Revision as of 23:08, 16 November 2024
Line 10:		Line 10:
	This is a first draft. If you think I'm wrong, edit the page to say why.		This is a first draft. If you think I'm wrong, edit the page to say why.

	Learning a microtonal system is harder than 12-equal where it's more complex and the harmonic context is not intuitively apparent. Which is most of the time (and sometimes so by definiton).		Learning a microtonal system is harder than [[12-equal]] where it's more [[Complexity\|complex]] and the harmonic context is not intuitively apparent. Which is most of the time (and sometimes so by definiton).

	However, systems that are microtonal relative to 12-equal may be easier to learn in several ways:		However, systems that are microtonal relative to 12-equal may be easier to learn in several ways:

	* The have fewer notes. For example, slendro, pelog, various other ~~diatonics~~.		* The have fewer notes. For example, [[slendro]], [[pelog]], various other [[diatonic]]s.
	* They are closer to natural harmonies: just intonation, microtemperament, and equivalents in alternative timbres.		* They are closer to natural harmonies: [[just intonation]], [[microtemperament]], and [[Timbral tuning\|equivalents]] in alternative timbres.
	* They resonate more with the subject's culture than the western chromatic; depends on context, and becoming less likely.		* They resonate more with the subject's [[Approaches to musical tuning\|culture]] than the western chromatic; depends on context, and becoming less likely.

	=== When does experience in 12 help in learning non-12? When does it hinder? ===		=== When does experience in 12 help in learning non-12? When does it hinder? ===
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	Mostly it depends on the nature of the experience, and how non-12 is being learned. Making this a useful topic for microtonal pedagogy of course.		Mostly it depends on the nature of the experience, and how non-12 is being learned. Making this a useful topic for microtonal pedagogy of course.

	If the musician has experience of tonal music with correct spelling, a transition to extended [[Meantone\|Meantone]] is natural. Early pieces should enforce the 5-limit diatonic framework and move gradually to more remote notes and harmonies. A theoretical knowledge of harmony also helps because many of those rules were laid down in a meantone context.		If the musician has experience of tonal music with correct spelling, a transition to extended [[Meantone\|Meantone]] is natural. Early pieces should enforce the [[5-limit]] diatonic framework and move gradually to more [[7-limit\|remote]] notes and harmonies. A theoretical knowledge of harmony also helps because many of those rules were laid down in a meantone context.

	If the musician thinks in terms of enharmonic equivalences, a procedure of dividing the equal tempered semitone is most productive. This leads first to quartertones ([[24edo\|24edo]]), but also to [[72edo\|72edo]], where they can learn 11-limit harmonies.		If the musician thinks in terms of [[enharmonic]] equivalences, a procedure of dividing the equal tempered semitone is most productive. This leads first to quartertones ([[24edo\|24edo]]), but also to [[72edo\|72edo]], where they can learn [[11-limit]] harmonies.

	Musicians with a Pythagorean mindset (most likely string players) may take to schismatic temperament (see [[Regular_Temperaments\|Regular Temperaments]]) or divisions of the semitone (above). They will have much more trouble with extended meantone (also above).		Musicians with a [[Pythagorean]] mindset (most likely string players) may take to [[schismatic]] temperament (see [[Regular_Temperaments\|Regular Temperaments]]) or divisions of the semitone (above). They will have much more trouble with extended meantone (also above).

	Experience may hinder when it conflicts with the new system being learned. Paradoxically, the most accomplished musicians will have the most difficulty because their habits are the most ingrained.		Experience may hinder when it conflicts with the new system being learned. Paradoxically, the most accomplished musicians will have the most difficulty because their habits are the most ingrained.